Now the mystery and what has kept me busy this week…
For nearly two years Father Robert McGuire was under investigation in New Brunswick, both by police and by the Diocese of Saint John, New Brunswick, …..and it was all kept hush hush.
McGuire disappeared from Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Miramichi without explanation, and not a word from Bishop Robert Harris who was well aware of the reason for McGuire’s departure. Instead, in tears from the pulpit at his final Mass at the Chatham Head parish,, McGuire read a letter advising a surprised congregation that he had requested and been granted a leave of absence. (I would imagine the same letter was read at the mission parish, Most Pure Heart of Mary Parish in Barnaby River )
That was March 2010. For nearly two full years the investigation has carried on, and not a word was uttered. It was all quiet in the Miramichi. It was all quiet in the Diocese of St. John, New Brunswick.
Not a boo.
I have now learned that the Miramichi police and, more recently, the Fredericton police, have closed their files. No charges have been laid.
So, no charges, why do I add Father McGuire to the list? Well, no charges laid can mean many things. And, there were indeed allegations, so he has indeed been accused. The list on the site includes those charged, sued or accused.
I will tell you what I have learned, from reliable sources, since this situation was first brought to my attention:
The Investigation (s)
(1) Father McGuire ‘said’ his last Mass at Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Miramichi (Chatham Head, New Brunswick) around mid March 2010. It was a Sunday – probably 14 March 2010. As I said earlier, he said he was taking a leave of absence, And, he shed a tear or two;
(2) Bishop Robert Harris was aware that there were allegations of a sexual nature from the beginning. In fact Bishop Harris happened to be in the Miramichi that very weekend.;
(3) There were a total of four complainants in the Miramichi area: one was age 25. two were age 16; one was age 15. All are male. The allegations related to recent incidents.
(4) The 25-year-old male was ready to stand behind his allegations and go to court;
(5) The families of and/or the teenage boys themselves did not want to go to court. I have actually heard it is the families who were adverse to the boys having to testify, but it could be the boys as well;
(6) I am uncertain if the investigation by Fredericton police involved one of the complainants from the Miramichi or a fifth complainant. I believe it is the former – if McGuire took one of the boys to Fredericton and something happened in Fredericton then it would fall under the jurisdiction of the Fredericton police;
(7) Persons close to the situation tell me that a woman by the name of Mamie Murray was conducting a diocesan investigation.
Mamie Murray, President of Atlantic Forensic Investigations & Consultants Ltd, a private investigation company specializing in polygraph and lie detector services, is based in Fredericton, New Brunswick.
A cached copy linked onto the site from the Mamie Murray link can be accessed here. I will post both these pages on the Father Robert McGuire page later. (8) It seems that in addition to the detective agency there may also be a team of three priests investigating for the diocese. I will try to confirm that.
This of course means that complainants have been subjected not only to questioning by and giving statements to police, but also to the same scenario with Mamie Murray – and she from a detective agency retained by the diocese.
There is a possibility that there has been yet another set of interviews/questioning conducted by three priests from the diocese. I have been told that there was a team of three priests involved but I want to check that further to ensure it is accurate. I actually have names of two of the three but will hold on posting them unil I am certain of their involvement.
Father Robert (Bob) McGuire
Now a little more information about Father McGuire.
(1) Father Bob McGuire was a “late vocation” to the priesthood. He was ordained 19 May 2000;
(2) Originally from the St. Stephen’s or Saint John area of New Brunswick, McGuire graduated from St. Thomas University in Fredericton New Brunswick in 1981. He had attained a BA;
(3) After attaining his BA McGuire worked as a ‘behaviourist’ with the York Central Hospital Association in Toronto;
(4) Somewhere along the line McGuire felt he was called to the priesthood. In 1998 he entered the seminary. I don’t know which seminary;
It’s interesting to see that there was no bishop in Saint John from around September 1997 when Bishop Troy suddenly and prematurely resigned, to October 1998 when Bishop Faber MacDonald was installed as bishop. I don’t therefore know who in 1998 would have given McGuire the nod to become a priest for the Diocese of St. John? unless he entered the seminary with plans to be ordained for the Archdiocese of Toronto or elsewhere and then changed his plans? or perhaps, and unless he was given the nod by Bishop Troy back in 1997? (Troy was bishop from April 1986 to September 1997)
Regardless, on 19 May 2000, after two years of seminary formation, McGuire was ordained as a priest for the Diocese of Saint John, New Brunswick. The Bishop of the day was Faber MacDonald (MacDonald served as Bishop of Grand Falls, Newfoundland from 1980 until his appointment to Saint John);
(5) From 2000-2002 Father Bob McGuire assisted at Sts. John and Paul Roman Catholic Church, in New Maryland, New Brunswick (that’s just outside Fredericton). The church has a mission at St. Columba Roman Catholic Church in Fredericton Junction, NB. The pastor was Father Ralph McRae;
(6) There was allegedly a problem of some sort at Sts. John and Paul. There is talk that McGuire left on a sabbatical in 2002. Whatever the situation it is understood, rightly or wrongly, that his last parish before arriving in the Miramichi was Sts. John and Paul in New Maryland: he did not, however, arrive in the Miramichi until 2004. I have as yet been unable to determine where Father McGuire was from 2002-2004 or if indeed there was anything untoward about his departure. Any assistance with this would be appreciated;
(7) Shortly after his arrival at Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Chatham Head, New Brunswick (summer of 2004) Father McGuire purchased a home in the Fredericton area. Parishioners in Chatham Head held a huge house warming party for him at the rec centre in Chatham Head. There were a lot of gifts, and a lot of cash gifts. Cash gifts allowed him to buy, amongst other things, a washer and dryer for his new home. Parishioners on the whole liked Father McGuire and were happy to help him set up his new home;
Father McGuire travelled back and forth to his home at least once a week. It’s about a two hour drive, but he would work his trips around his Mass schedule;
(8) McGuire used to take young lads on overnight trips to Magic Mountain, a huge water-park in Moncton, New Brunswick. He took groups of three or four young lads on camping trips. He was also a Big Brother;
(9) There are rumours circulating that McGuire was threatening to have complainants charged for laying false allegations.
There are rumours that McGuire is out of the priesthood ( I don’t think that is fact: he’s still listed on the Diocese of St. John’s website)
There are also rumours that he was working at Sobey’s in Fredericton, New Brunswick. I doubt that, but, who knows? This of course is the problem when people aren’t told what’s going on. Rumours abound.
(11) There is frustration that since the day this began nearly two years ago parishioners and Catholics in the diocese have been left in the dark. Not a word from the bishop.
As I say, rumours abound. It’s hard for one and all to separate fact from fiction when the shepherd isn’t up front and honest with his flock..
(12) Neither Bishop Harris nor his Vicar General will answer questions I posed by by email.
Silence!
There is much about this whole situation which is troubling. I am hoping to get a little deeper into it to sort a few more pieces of the puzzle out. If anyone can shed light on any little corner of darkness please contact me at cornwall@theinquiry.ca.
Meanwhile, keep the complainants and their families in your prayers.
Enough for now,
Sylvia
Do I understand this situation correctly? Three minors made accusations against a priest. The accusations were investigated with no charges being laid. Case closed. Did I miss something?
That what has happened all over the world: case closed, no charges were laid.
Sylvia: Hate to say it but I’m with Glen on this one. If the Police have investigated and decided not to lay charges, how can you say that the allegations are ‘credible’? Are you not in this case making the mistake of assuming that the accused is guilty even if the Police find no grounds to proceed with charges? Like Glen, am I missing something here? This does not seem to meet your usual standard of culpability for listing the priest in your data base. Could you explain a little more completely why it is that you are putting his name on your site? Thanks.
Fr. Tim
Charges were dropped in many cases all over the world because the church is very powerful, and they hire the best lawyers money can buy. If there’s 3 people that came forward, it’s unlikely that the allegations are groundless. Considering that these were children and the damage that may have been done you should be erring on the side of caution. I want to know on what grounds the charges were dropped. By the way I suggest you watch the new movie ‘Spotlight’ about pedophile priests.
Glen, Fr. Tim
Families don’t want children to testify, ergo the police can not lay charges. Are you both actually saying that because charges are not – and can not be- laid in such circumstances the allegations are not credible?
I don’r believe it!!! This in small part is precisely what has brought us to this point. I can assure you both that over the years there is nothing a diocese/bishop loved more than a young victim any victim for that matter – who did not want to testify.
Company just arrived – more on this later.
Sylvia: I hope you enjoyed your company. You are a wonderful hostess so I’m certain your guests enjoyed themselves!
I didn’t catch the point about the parents not wanting the children to testify (sorry – read your post too fast), but that often doesn’t mean that charges wouldn’t get laid. It’s the same with domestic abuse. The charge is laid if there is evidence of abuse even if the victim chooses later not to testify. Why would it be different in this case? If there were credible grounds for believing that the priest abused the kids, then the Police would have laid charges. That’s the way it worked when I was a CAS worker in Ontario. I doubt it’s different in N.B.
The point I am making is that there has to be some sort of standard that we can use as a society to determine whether an illegal act occurred: the laying of charges and a conviction in court. We are getting into dangerous waters when an allegation that has been investigated without either occurring yet we still consider that alleged to be guilty. I appreciate that I am ‘splitting hairs’ to a degree, but in this case I think that I am correct.
Why do I say this? It’s not because of the problem with the parents of the teenagers. It’s because of the 25 yr old. He wanted to proceed and yet the Police decided not to lay a charge. This is not an insignificant point. There were no parents to interfere. The Police were fully capable of investigating – and evidently the results led them to believe that there was not enough credible evidence to proceed.
Now, should this guy be allowed to function in a parish? No. The fact that three individuals have came forward with allegations means that he could not effectively (safely?) function as a parish priest. The standard that should be applied by the Church should not give the benefit of the doubt to the cleric in such a case. The Church MUST give any benefit to ensuring the safety of children and is not obliged to be guided by the legal standard of the justice system.
I am only expressing a concern about this one case. You know that I am not indifferent to the abuse of children, or the protection of predators by the Church. We are of one mind on this subject. Given the facts as you presented them, this case just seems somehow different for the reasons I have stated. I hope this clarifies my post for you and helps you understand why I am uncomfortable with the way that you have proceeded in listing McGuire.
But it is your blog and I do not presume to tell you how to run it. Please don’t think that I am. Given the great good that you are doing, I would not dare to for fear of screwing up this valuable ministry you are offering the Church. All I suggest is that no one is perfect and PERHAPS you might have made an error in this case.
Fr. Tim
No Father I don’t understand.
First, I do not know of one case in which charges were laid with what is often referred to as ‘reluctant’ witnesses. To the contrary. I know of cases in which charges were not laid specifically because either the complainant did not want to testify publicly at trial, or, in the case of young complainants, the complainants’ parents were adverse to having their child put through the process. I also know of cases in which police were prepared to lay charges and the Crown attorney decided that it would be a difficult case to prove in court – so, no charges were laid -not because the allegations were not believed, but because the Crown felt for any of a number reasons that he/she would have difficulty proving it in court.
And then of course there is the case of David Silmser in Cornwall. In that case the Crown attorney specifically told a police officer: “It is our policy not to compel victims of sex crimes to proceed against their wishes” and “It is…exceptionally difficult to put supportive victims through the sexual offense trial process. It is for policy reasons, not in the public interest to put a reluctant witness through the same process.”
There is much more to the Silmser case – I cite the quotes only to show the role a Crown attorney can play in determining whether or not charges are laid and to show that it was policy not to compel a reluctant witness to proceed against their wishes.
What teenage boy wants to take the stand to publicly testify what Father So-and-So did to him? Those lads are consumed by shame – they shouldn’t be, but, they are. As I often say, the shame rightly belongs to their molester and should be put squarely on the shoulders of their molesters. If parents and others don’t help these poor young souls understand the import of testifying chances unfortunately are high that they will no want to and will not testify, hence, – no charges. A terrible shame – not only does it enhance the boy’s notion that there is truly something to be ashamed of, but it allows his molester to continue to prey.
I assure you Father that there are many such cases. I have struggled with this over the years, on the one hand understanding the complainant’s reluctance, but, on the other horrified that, if indeed the allegations are true, a sexual predator can be left foot-loose-and-fancy-free to molest again. There’s something sorely amiss here. What about the children? So, it would perhaps be nice if indeed victims of sex abuse were obliged to testify, and that may be the case in some area, but it is not the case everywhere. To the contrary. And I am thinking of cases in Ontario. Things may have changed since you worked with CAS, or perhaps you worked in an area where it was the policy of the Crown’s office to compel sex abuse victims to testify?
As for the 25-year-old, perhaps you are jumping to a conclusion that the police did not want to lay charges? and that there was not enough “credible” evidence to proceed? I have seen and hear enough to know that the fact that charges were not laid does not necessarily mean that the police did not want to lay charges, nor that the allegations were not deemed credible.
I have never said that Father McGuire is guilty. I added his name because he has been accused. He was under investigation. No charges were laid.
I am far from perfect. I do not however believe I made an error in reporting this. I believe Catholics have a right to know these facts.
I think it would have been much more appropriate had the bishop explained Father McGuire’s sudden departure nearly two long years ago. I think it would have been much more appropriate had the bishop asked that anyone with allegations against Father McGuire contact the police.
If Father McGuire is innocent and the allegations are false, then he should be allowed to continue to function as a priest. If, however, the diocese concludes that the allegations are credible then he should be out.
Sylvia: I bow to your expertise regarding how these matters are investigated and dealt with by the Police these days. It has indeed been a long time since I worked as a social worker so things may be different as you say. I accept that I may well be out of touch with how the Police and related agencies deal with these investigations and perhaps they cannot proceed under these circumstances.
I am grateful for your thoughtful and complete reply. You have given me much to think about. I am still nervous about using a standard other than the one provided by the justice system to ascertain whether or not there is reason to lay charges… but maybe I need to change my mindset on the subject. Thank you for taking the time to explain things a little more for me.
Fr. Tim
“Catholics have a right to know these ‘facts’ “. What facts are speaking about? The veracity of these ‘facts’ can only be tested under cross examination in a court of law. Until that point, they are allegations and only allegations, which can be brought forward for a whole host of reasons.
I think something is totally amiss when individuals can be skewered in public, in the paper, on blogs and on television before they have even had their day in court. Now we have sunk to a new level: the police and the crown cannot proceed because there is insufficient evidence to bring the matter to trial. And yet, on this blog, that is still not good enough. They must be guilty? Is that the kind of system of justice we want?
Would you feel the same way if one of your children faced the same set of circumstances? No charges, no evidence brought to court and yet they are guilty and posted to a blog?
I think Father that the safety and well-being of children is paramount. Always.
Sylvia: On that, there can be no disagreement. What’s at issue is how to do it. No?
Fr. Tim
My thoughts exactly Tim. This can be dangerous stuff: the host of the blog gets to be detective, police, crown attorney and ultimately the trier of fact all along the way publishing conclusions that have never been reached by anyone else!
By your own admission Sylvia you admit that you do not always get to talk to everyone you might like to. That, by definition, means you do not have ALL of the facts.
Don’t be under any doubt: any animal, abusive b***tard, any snake who would prey on children should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law (whatever they means in Canadian Law!). Those who protect abusers or fail to report should be held to account.
However, if following investigation and due process there is insufficient evidence to lay a single charge, are we comfortable having a system when everyone can publish, announce and trumpet that an individual is guilty?
Would you believe the same if your son or daughter was featured on a blog concerning their profession or work? The screams of ‘unfair’, ‘outrage’, ‘libel’ would abound I am sure.
I think a very strong argument could be made that a publication bann should be invoked about ANY case being investigated until charges are filed. I am speaking about abuse cases, fraud or shoplifting! After the charges are laid there will be ample time to cast out the net to encourage others to step forward.
Tim and Glen, I share your concerns about this case and it’s publication. Glen’s remarks summed up my conclusions precisely: the priest took an administrative leave, a matter was investigated by the police, no charges were laid. And yet, this priest is presumed guilty about something he wasn’t he charged about? Are you kidding me? I don’t care what some folks have said behind closed doors or in private emails. The system we have is all that we got! I think it is shameful that this man’s name has been dragged through the mud here.
The other deep concern is the tenor of the banner found at the beginning. Is Sylvia suggesting that all entities, including the church, should publish the reasons why an individual might request a loa? So the same standards should apply to teachers, administrators, business owners, politicians? So an individual who takes a loa must be a pervert or could it be a health issue, family issue, stress leave or some other very legitimate reason to revealed?
I find the tenor of this entire discussion very frightening and unfair.
The last aside: unless I have missed it, why is Father Leclaire, formerly of Blessed Sacrament Parish in Ottawa even mentioned on this site? According to the blogs header this is a blog dealing with the sexual abuse scandal in Canada. What sexual abuse is Father accused of and why is his name on this blog?
Fr. Tim, and Fr. Steve:
It is noteworthy that your backs come up a bit when you think some Priest might be falsely labelled I get upset about that when it happens.
But, do you get so upset when you know about the abuse that has taken place in the Diocese of Pembroke by Priests other then Prince and Borne?
And do you report it to the Police?
You know of other cases, in Round Lake, and Renfrew, and Arnprior, and have not gone to the police about those as far as I am aware.
Sheep: Yes, I am upset by the crimes committed by some of my brother priests in the Diocese of Pembroke. And yes, I have twice gone to the Police with allegations from within the Diocese. If I received another allegation (NOTE: allegation – not a rumor!) I would indeed go again. I am not away of any other allegations in any of the places you mentioned.
Fr. Tim
Father Steve: Please see my response to Father Tim above.
Re LOAs: I am suggesting that a priest who takes an LOA because there have been sex abuse allegations against him should be honest and tell parishioners that he is under investigation – either he should do so personally or the bishop could do so on his behalf. Bishop Brendan O’Brien made such a statement when Father Labelle stepped down. I believe that is the proper way to handle such situations
And what of my concern about the posting of Father Leclair on this site?
Father Steve; re your question about Father LeClair. I didn’t respond to that portion of you comment because quite honestly it was too late/early to do what needed to be done to ensure that you and others are not confused as to why Father Joe LeClair’s name is on the site.
This blog was originally set up to blog the Cornwall Public Inquiry. When I added the Accused data base and shifted all postings to Sylvia’s Site (new software which would allow me to do so) I changed the blog subtitle to “Blogging the sex abuse scandal in the Roman Catholic Church in Canada.” Those who operate such sites know that the “tagline” should explain in a few words what the site is about.
In as much as the tagline says Canada I have regularly been posting articles from around the world. In as much as the tagline says Roman Catholic I occasionally post articles which deal with non-Catholic predators and have an item on the menu for “Child Porn” – the latter includes articles related to both Catholics and non-Catholics who have been charged.
In as much as the tagline reads “sex abuse” I have over the past two years posted articles related to allegations and/or charges of clerical financial indiscretions . In May 2011 the name of New Brunswick Father Yvon Doiron was added. Doiron’s charges were theft-related. I believe everyone understood very well that Father Doiron had not been accused of sexual misconduct and that the fact that his name was added to the site did not for a moment imply any sexual misconduct on his part. I think- I may be wrong – but I think people understood that the allegations in this instance related to a betrayal of trust. We trust our clergy not to steal the dollars we give to “the Church.” We trust that our clergy are not raiding the candle fund, or the Sunday collections, or bilking the elderly and vulnerable of their life’s savings. In like vein we trust that our clergy are not sexually abusing our children. We also trust that our clergy are not engaging in homosexual relationships or one night stands. We trust that our clergy are not romping about with married women, or, for that matter, with unmarried women. We trust that our bishops will not subject us and our children to known and/or convicted child molesters.
Well, in truth, perhaps times have changed. Perhaps because of one betrayal of trust after the other we no longer know who to trust?
As far as I’m concerned Father, clerical financial ‘indiscretions” are a betrayal of trust. Heaped as they now are upon the betrayals from the sex abuse scandals and cover-ups they have become part of the scandal with which the laity must struggle.
To avoid any further confusion for you and others who fail to understand why there is a page for Father LeClair I have changed the tagline Father. The tagline now reads: “Blogging the sex abuse scandal and betrayals of trust in the Roman Catholic Church in Canada.” Now that that has been accomplished I will later, for ease of access to one and all, move Father LeClair’s name over to the Accused list.
Thank you for prompting me to get this taken care of Father.
A question Father: Did you report your priest abuser to police? and, if yes, were charges laid ? and if yes, was he convicted?
Thank you for your lengthy explanation.
Having experienced live and in color some of the venom that prima among others has spewed, my personal sharing about this matter is closed. My ‘trust’ or rather ‘distrust’ radar is going off in spades. Everything in my gut tells me that u are not necessarily seeking information for the good of my health.
I hope I’m wrong.
As Father Moyle indicated, the priest has left the ministry. I was 17 or 18 I believe when these events transpired. A long long time ago. There were rumors and suggestions that there were others like me and I know their names. Rumors, however do not equal fact.
1abandoned, I am the former Chancellor and Judicial Vicar of this diocese. I left these offices of my own accord and with joy because of the b**shit associated with the governance of SOME churches (among other reasons).
I am not aware of a single illegal action by any priest that I should have reported. My strong suit has not been diplomacy and I do not suffer fools well. I have been in communication with the Crown Attorneys office about one of the cases you mentioned.
Clarification: I left those offices because of the governance of Richard Smith and internal politics which were a waste of time
Father Ballard: About a year ago someone posted an item on this blog which I recall named a Steven Ballard of Renfrew as having either been abused, or propositioned while attending school in Renfrew. I was wondering it this was you or some other Steven Ballard.
It was I and I posted it under my own name on Father Moyle’s blog.
Thanks for threply, Father. You will know then about the anguish of people as to whether or not they should talk about it.
At the time did you share this with your family or friends? I would guess not.
You are welcome.
I think I shared it with friends but I don’t think with family. As I indicated at the time of the initial post, this priest was a train wreck and many knew it. Of course being young, I placed myself in an unfortunate place where that might happen.
My friends openly talked about this priest being a drunken idiot. Since I was contemplating a move to the seminary, he was something of a ‘resource’ who could assist with my discernment. In addition, there was a relationship I was involved in which only made that discernment more interesting. In the course of my growth and training I raised the issue if these experiences with a professional to ensure that there were no residual effects that would spill out in my life then, or at a later time.
Sheep: I shared it on my blog! How much more public would you expect Fr. Steve to be? Should he have put it on a billboard in town?
Let me assure you that he shared it with the people who needed to know and the person concerned has been removed from the priesthood. Fr. Steve should be commended for having the courage to take the steps that he did to ensure that others would not be victimized, not slighted by your nebulous assumptions. If every priest acted as he has, there would be fewer predators among our ranks.
Fr. Tim
Oops: ‘He’ (not I) shared it on my blog… sorry Steve.
Fr. Tim
Tim, I take no offense to sheep’s questions. I did not feel them to be edgy or nasty at all.
Thank you for your kind words.
Is it the Tragically Hip that sings ‘life is no dress rehearsal?’ Great band!
Fr. Moyle. I was discussing that with Fr. Ballard. I did not know it was on your blog, and I am not sure what difference that makes, Someone referred to it on this blog. That is where I found it. I do not read your Blog, too much plagerism , and not much original content. It really is not much of a blog. I probably knew fr. Ballard before you did. He was 15 when I first met him
Sheep: Indeed you did know him before me. He was 19 when we first met in the Seminary.
The point I was making was that he had not participated in some sort of cover-up as has been insinuated here. He has openly disclosed it himself for the whole world to see so it’s pretty irrelevant if he did or didn’t tell his family.
Steve: Great band indeed!
Fr. Tim
As a practicing Catholic I read this site to keep myself informed about: ongoing cases; upcoming court dates; convictions; and ongoing investigations. I think the site does a very good service in that way. I just want the facts. Nothing more, nothing less. So, thanks to Sylvia for providing the facts.
However, like Fr. Moyle, Glen and others – I too have concerns about posting information about a case/a person where the outcomes is innocent, or no charges. Perhaps there are other circumstances – but I, personally, would likely stop reading this site if I thought it was all about conjecture and personal “private investigator” type investigations.
As a matter of conscience, I really believe that all facts here must be substantiated – if Sylvia has further information – then I want names of those who make the claims/statements – and plainly stated.
So, with all respect. Aren’t the facts – the convictions – the ongoing investigations – enough.
If this site is about bring forward reality – then – mustn’t we also stay real?
It is real Anne. Rest assured I did my homework and reported those facts which I can report. I can not give names.
Using logic in this situation, yes there is a possibility the accused is guilty and the children are too ashamed to testify. However, there is also a possibility the accused is innocent and the children don’t want to perjure themselves.
Due to the seriousness of such accusations, the Church takes a ‘guilty until proven innocent’ by automatically removing any priest. Our judicial system of course takes the opposite position. Pedophiles did infiltrate the Church, however, many good priests have been falsely accused by people with ulterior motives.
The laity have a duty to protect our priests as they are constant attack by Satan, secular media, and other enemies. Pedophilia is a societal problem, not exclusive of the Church. As the recent child pornography arrests in Ontario prove this plague is very much upon us.
Thank you for all the work you do on this issue, Sylvia. Are there any citizens groups advocating tougher sentences for pedophilia and child pornography?
To have the wisdom of Solomon in these matters sure would help..I think Tim Moyle did say something that would be workable in the function of a parish in this instance and that is that if there is but an inkling of doubt the person in question forfeits their ministry to kids. They should not have any access to children without the benefit of a second or third in their presence at any time. Safety first and honesty in all matters pertaining to children should be the position of the Church if it is to regain some credibility as a caring institution.
It is a difficult position to be in when one is inquiring as to the validity and veracity of an incident and the outcome can be tragic for the complainant and the accused if it is not concluded to an end that leaves no doubt. Nobody want to leave a child unprotected or to tarnish a person’s good name. For example the Mullins matter where the priest’s accuser was chastised in court shamefully and told he was lying and then the accused goes to Ireland and he is convicted for beating young people and assaults them sexually. I understand that he may still be doing such things as a non cleric. He should have been pulled away from any ministry to youth and should have been supervised by a person whose role would be the protection of children, a buddy system of sorts. Dejeager the courts said he was not a pedophile well apparently they where wrong..should not have had any access to children after his conviction and should have been defrocked and supervised by the state. I understand that if you are found to be an accused and you are innocent how that can grate on your sense of personal justice however if you are accused and you are truly in this business to be of service to your God then surrender and comply to the safest position of trust and do not place yourself in a situation that elicits further doubt. Protect children by not ever being in a situation that may be put in question. God has a lot of different kind of work for a lot of different people. So in terms of naming someone to the list of accused I have no issue with that maybe we should have the good the bad and the ugly as a sort of listing system.. those who are guilty throw them out period, those who are accused but not convicted, must be supervised disclosed and placed in “safer ministries not just shuffled off to a hidden location and the good can go on about their business. The guilty, the maybe guilty and the not guilty I do agree with my friend Sylvia that in all these matters the church should rise to a level of unquestionable transparency.
Fr Steve Ballard said: ”The last aside: unless I have missed it, why is Father Leclaire, formerly of Blessed Sacrament Parish in Ottawa even mentioned on this site? According to the blogs header this is a blog dealing with the sexual abuse scandal in Canada. What sexual abuse is Father accused of and why is his name on this blog?”
Your ‘last aside’ gives me the sense that you are outraged this site exists at all. That you are not a neophyte to Sylvia’s site. Your golly-gosh-look-at-what’s-here-as-well is a bit disingenuous.
I believe Leclaire is listed under an ‘other’ classification which describes (non sexual) irregularities of various sorts. The story was national news, the story was baffling and did involve a well-known RC parish in Canada. And all was not kosher.
There is much to be learned from understanding cleric abuse of all forms. In the case of Leclaire it may point to professional isolation and the dangers of addiction – I do not know. But understanding may help the Church and other denominations in Canada and beyond.
Fancy: not outraged that this site exists at all. Just concerned about the inconsistency of what the site purports to stand for and why a case about Fr. Leclair would be placed here? Maybe Sylvia’s top banner should be amended. Otherwise one can get the impression that any dirt one can gain on any priest is what the site is looking for.
As mentioned in another place, I am deeply concerned about the assaults on people’s reputations. I have seen in a few places, disparaging remarks about individuals that are tantamount to libel. If you read in a post of this week, a person labelled a priest ‘a crook’. Sylvia eventually edited the post as she should have.
Defending the innocence, rights, good name of a person is extremely important, unless and until the contrary has been proven. I suspect that if a blog of this type was formed about teachers, nurses, boy scout leaders, doctors etc. the screams that would be heard about such rights would be deafening, and with good reason.
My sister is an elder who lives in Miramichi and she is not out to destroy anyone.
She knows what happened to her friend’s children or grandchildren (Bob McGuire) whether the court documents it or not. She knows what is has done to these children. My God, these are church leaders who are supposed to teach us truth, morality and justice and hear our confession of sins. The justice system has never really dealt with this “culture” of sexually violating children. They are hopefully learning as we put demands on them, and we must. We know that money, position and power perverts justice at all levels, and children are powerless. What is frightening is that the church leaders think they are still above the law of the land – and perhaps most men do not look at sexual violation of children as sin. Is it any different from rape?
I know of a priest who quickly stepped down in recent months, he gave 3 different reasons to 3 different people for it. People are questioning it. Why shouldn’t we? He is young and vibrant. If all is okay, we should be able to know where he is going, studying? or if indeed leaving the priesthood? and encourage his parishioners to pray for him. Maybe we would like to send him a card now and again. Otherwise, there is no closure. It leaves us in the dark.
I would ask priests who are defensive, not to worry, if you don’t molest children, stay away from those who do and don’t support or defend those who do. It was and still is that way in Corner Brook, Labrador diocese, if you don’t condemn the act, you defend it, and many are guilty by association. All those who knew Raymond Lahey knew he had a problem. Sylvia’s list contains many names from the province of Newfoundland. That speaks for itself. From Mt. Cashel, St. John’s, to the whole former diocese of Bay St. George. None has admitted it except when forced to and none has asked for forgiveness. In every diocese, abuse continues, but more so on the internet, posing as a younger person until some precious child has the courage to tell Mom, Dad or a grandparent.
If you don’t need to run, stay and face the music. If you are guilty, confess. Isn’t this what Jesus taught? How else is the priesthood going to clean itself up and protect us? Perhaps the next move is to have the Mass in Latin as another deflector. I am being sarcastic here, though not totally unrealistic.
Deeply: You have hit upon an important point, one that animates me on this blog. As Martin Luther King once wrote (I’m paraphrasing here) , it is not enough for a religion to just be concerned for the souls of men. It must also condemn those things that strangle and cripple people. To fail to do so will ultimately lead to a spiritually moribund religion only waiting for the day to be buried.
It is not enough for priests to simply not abuse. We must work to eliminate the abusers from our midst and care for those who have been wounded by their crimes. This is why I (and I know of some others too) have gone to the Police each time I have received an allegation of abuse by a clergyman (or by anyone else for that matter). We all should do the same. It’s the only way to heal the Church of this cancer.
Fr. Tim
The same day Sylvia posted this information on McGuire, I watched on the national news a sequence originally posted on YouTube and showing a Policeman at a youth rally in Montreal hitting two demonstrators. The short film also shows the same policeman “throwing” a girl to the side…
The Police Spokesman initial response was to try to blur, explain away the “unfortunate incident”, that it would take a while to investigate…The next day another newscast spoke more clearly of the police brutality, excessive force…
The Court of public opinion made its views known it is very hard to hide from this kind of evidence…
I think this is the new world we are beginning to see, the people in “authority” who use to be able to deny are now facing scrutiny from all sides.
The information Sylvia has obtained I think falls in the same category… except verbal. At a certain level may help in the future if only as a deterrent…
Not laying any charges sometimes has very little to do with the evidence…It can be for reason as benign as a small community watching its budget very closely…it can be because of a weak investigation…bickering between police jurisdictions…shortage of police staff…”connections” at the higher levels of the hierarchy…I’ll bet the investigators may have had a few chuckles about this one and looked hard to find a way out…This macho cop environment doesn’t always like to deal with these sissys…
The victims(to the delight of some who post here!) may have been “labelled” and not treated seriously…in these encounters!..
The only way to get “eyewitness” evidence about abusive priests which could convince our modern media and some “cloth” may be to outfit the children with hidden cameras and microphones when they deal with “potential” threats…Just saying it could be a deterrent…maybe some enterprising young boy/girl being pursued by one of these predators will start thinking about a You Tube feature film! …not accused, not found guilty in a Court of Law but presented in a public forum for all to decide what they believe and who they trust. Maybe small digital recorders to get those “conversations” with your priest…Very legal if you are part of the recording…
If the posting of this information is so out of place, then all those films which have “helped” the authorities in their efforts were also out of place. People who have not been convicted are on the National News every night and no one objects…This is just of the same in another media. Sylvia can back what she has presented and it may serve at putting the same pressure on the “authorities” the way a film would.
The first ones to object in this case, again, who bring back the same arguments, the nay-sayers are defending the “institution”…Not wasting more on that!
Finally, we wouldn’t even be having these conversations if the Bishop, the Diocese had reacted properly and not tried to hide it .
Very good points made above by “deeplybetrayed”, don’t run and hide as this one did.
Anybody know where he is ,by the way?
Sylvia, risky, gutsy move at first glance but I think you’re in step with the rest.
Eyes closed but ears wide open.
My 2 cents.
jg
“jg”- bingo! You are right on! I often reflect upon the many, many “allegations” that were settled, for various reasons, prior to criminal charges being filed, served and/or where criminal charges were never filed/served. This of course, is one of the issues that disturbs me so terribly to this day. Another issue that disturbs me to no end, is that some officials, social workers and others who post on this site, clearly know what you are writing about and what I am writing about. Innocent until proven guilty–LOL!! How fresh is this to me; this weekend, I spent hours communicating with a very depressed family member of a victim of sexual abuse. The family had agreed to a stipulation, in the circa and no charges were ever filed. The victim committed suicide in or about 1993. The family lives on in severe pain and sufferring.
Prima: your comments raise more questions than answers.
And so you do not believe in settlements outside of court? Even when the victim requests it? Do you believe in plea agreements.
Your own statement, ” I often reflect upon the many, many “allegations” that were settled, for various reasons ” – if they were settled, that means there was an agreement between both parties? Both parties signed off, perhaps with legal counsel advising them? Am I missing something?
I am not understanding your point? Is it that you wished that this unfortunate family had not settled, and yet they did?
Mr. Facie 🙂
Long time since our alphabets crossed paths!…
You would get it…and you know I could have a LOT more to say on the procedures…this is just a quick sketch.
My sincere thoughts about the family member; suicide is never the answer and very often deprives us of another persons gifts. How many Mozarts have we lost?
If I can ever help in this type of situation, I give Sylvia permission to give you my Email address…and then we can talk on the phone.
Back to the subject at hand..just this week I was given two more names in this area of priests who “abused” and never made it to court…one was deemed incompetent by the court and all charges were dropped although the evidence was going to trial…the other was a “recycled” adept of kiddy porn..
I passed some information to Sylvia, who will probably find out more with her crystal ball…
jg
Father Steve: I have written for years on this site about this topic. If you do not know how I feel about this, then I am not about to get into a debate with you. As I see it, you must simply be one of a multitude of surrogates interested in forming public opinion to suit your own means and the people you represent ie) The Church et al. There have been many before you. Briefly; in my opinion and based on my experiences, many victims/survivors NOT ALL, are manipulated into “settlements” etc., even if they the are purported to have asked for them. Re: your lawyer question-obviously you are relatively new to the site or in a phase of short-term memory loss. Get real Father. I have more friends that are lawyers and I have interacted with more lawyers who I would never spend a moment of day with, than you will ever dream of. A lawyer can spin any interpretation he wants to “for the greater good”, depending on who’s defining “the Greater Good” these days. Really, I mean really Father. Take your dribble to someone who will buy it!
Suppression of the abuse or the traumatic event/repressed memories/dissociation/social outcasting and other factors, are some of the reasons compelling alleged victims/victims,
to settle or remain silent. “It will get better. Maybe this will pass and everyone will forget”.
A few weeks ago my brothers and I (Four Brothers) ALL met for the first time in many, many years. One of my brothers (60) is dying from “ALS-Lou Gehrig’s Disease“. Too bad, we waited for this to get together. Various reasons kept us from being together, in one place, at one time. Another brother (64) has worked with lawyers most of his life. For those who know me,…..
well they will understand that he and I have never really been on the same page, so-to-speak.
In addition, I elected to interact with him minimally for other credible reasons. I believe he
was blacklisted, as a result of my involvement in various litigations, investigations and a public inquiry. (paranoia or fact?). Make no mistake about it folks, this world is not as big as we think…..blacklisting exists and I believe it happened in my brothers case….right “P.E.”?
The four days were great! We got along famously….no politics-well some, no religion-well some, no business-well some. We reminisced, dined, visited relatives, joked and laughed.
We also spent some very serious time. One memory in particular elicited silence and much sadness. In 1954, my family travelled to Quebec City from our home in Thetford Mines. This was for a picnic after church. They did that frequently. On this day, a drunk driver hit the second of two of our family vehicles, killing my (matriarchal) grandmother instantly. I was born later in 1954.
At our meeting a few weeks ago, i.e.) the “Four Brothers”, we started to discuss this accident. My eldest brother (73-career military) reported to us that he was the first on the scene from the other vehicle. He started telling the story of the accident, then he began to cry. Pride in hand, he left the room….I followed. He cried in my arms. He said, “it’s all coming back”. “I can smell the burning rubber, seats and other things.” “I can see people hanging out the doors and broken windows”. He went on. He then said, “I guess this had to come out, but why has it taken so long?” Well, as I see it, present conditions presented the opportunity for this “lost, repressed, memory” to escape.
Yes, the recovery of “repressed memories” is a highly charged and debated topic. But, was my brother’s experience real or fake? I believe the same applies to recovery of repressed memories relating to sexual abuse.
For various reasons, there are undisclosed settlements, stipulations, that involve no charges being filed and served. After all, if the principle witness will not testify, there will be little chance to prosecute and convict. And, with the repression of memories, dissociation, etc., statute of limitations will have “run” before anyone may seek recourse. Doesn’t this give the “accused” and their surrogates a significant safety net? My, my.
Finally, you know what? All the scholars, authorities, social workers-past and present and other
Professionals posting on this site and following this site know it also. In my humble opinion, you are despicable, self-preserving cowards.
Prima: Nice job beating the stuffing out of the argument that repressed memories are false. Too bad no said they were. Wasn’t your experience with your brothers emotional enough without complicating things by wailing away at an allegation that no one has leveled? In fact, the only one in your exchange with Fr. Steve who is throwing around baseless and empty charges is you!
And I don’t need to be a ‘professional’ (you got something against people who are educated?) to see that.
In my opinion, you are nothing more than a malicious and evil troll. An empty shirt. Hot air and evil intent. A school yard bully who resorts to brutish tactics when you can do nothing more than roar toothless threats. The internet version of the old lady of years ago who reveled in spreading malicious gossip along the party line phone. So I guess we are about equal when it comes to holding a vile opinion of each other. The only difference is yours is based on prejudice and hate. Mine is based on your comments on this blog.
In summary, who gives a rat’s ass what you think you know about the Diocese. You know squat or you would have long ago spread it as liberally in these threads as the farmers around here spread manure on their fields. At least the farmers are accomplishing more than polluting the air with foul stench. Too bad you can’t do the same. Your comments might be of some use.
Fr. Tim
….in addition Father Steve. I do not expect you to understand my point, however, in your case, I suggest that you do. And, you ask if you are missing something. My reply would normally include further details. But, in your case and being in the Diocese of Pembroke, with the years or problems your Diocese has had; I would give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are simply “blind”.
in addition Prima, I do not expect you to understand my point. So feel free to post whatever you’ve got 0n the Diocese bud. I have no doubt that there might be a few priests who would have the resources to make to pay for any false accusation in court if you actually have the courage of your convictions and are not some fool spouting bull to make himself seem important. If they don’t, it shouldn’t be too hard for them find a willing lawyer who would take a libel suit against you on a contingency fee basis if you are wrong. There seem to be a lot of them around these days.
I won’t give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are a troll and a blowhard.
Fr. Tim
Re: Pembroke Priests:
Finally, in mention of Pembroke, whatever happened to the group of Pembroke Priests who were going to come forward and “TELL ALL”? Were they for real or fiction? Or, were they part of the “Keeping The Flock In The Dark” mentality?
Peace
Thanks for your sharing! Insults and all! Have a great day.
Steve Ballard,
You can sound offended if you will but I think if you had taken more then 10-15 minutes to throw a little pebble at “prima facie” and spent time reflecting…maybe staying on subject instead of deflecting, redirecting …even answering a question with another question, you would have participated in more civility..
It is often the case when the subject is too close to home, someone of “the cloth” starts with nonsense to distract into another direction…I think this is a recurrent pattern to keep the turmoil and distract. Is that learned in seminary or through weekend retreats….
Not sarcastic, just an observation…and one of the many reasons which make it difficult to be “trusting” …Too many mind games.
Today I was going to have a good word for you and Tim Moyle for simply speaking out as priests, with your own identity, unlike others lurking in the shadows…
I think you knew exactly what the result of your “challenge” with “prima facie” would bring…always too “subtle” but always aware of which button to press…A bit of innocent sabotage!
jg
Sometimes questions are just that. Prima helped me appreciate one thing: I know that the church has many challenges, but perhaps not as many as the legal community! Talk about the need for reform among lawyers.
In any case, life is too short to waste on ‘professionals’ as i have seen today. The venom is kind of sad actually.
Off to a Super Bowl celebration! Cheers!
“sometimes”…just another Game!
Yes, I hope a great game. I pick the Patriots by 10!
Pax Christi.
…and his answer below…so predictably deceitful…mean one thing and say another…the other game is NOT the Super Bowl, and he knows it…
He was off to the Super Bowl at 3:28, hadn’t moved by 5;20…probably still there.
Even his “Pax Christi” sounds condescending after his interactions of the day.
If they didn’t try to outwit everyone we could get somewhere.
Unbelievable by 100,000!
jg
JG:
1) ever heard of a smart phone or an ipad? No need to be in an office or at home to monitor and comment here. I’m doing that myself right now.
2) why the assumption of ill intent and deception? If such accusations and insults were posted about you, you would rightly be enraged. You question his integrity and truthfulness and then have the cahones to claim the moral high ground. A cheap personal attack that has no place in a civil conversation. Is that too high a standard of conduct for you to meet? Too bad. It doesn’t give you the right to insult and slander someone that you have probably never even met and certainly know nothing about.
Steve has an excellent radar. I have a thicker skin. I’m not afraid to call you on such slander even though I know it will only bring more self-righteous bull from you – this time in my direction!
You are little more than an ignorant troll masquerading as a moral person if you think that your unsubstantiated slander is justified. Get help before you really hurt someone.
Don’t like the insult? Then stop insulting others.
Fr. Tim
Prima: If you know so much, tell us: how many Pembroke priests have you reported to the Police? I’m certain I’ve got you beat by at least two on that score. I for one have done a hell of a lot more than you have ever accomplished with your bleating and bile.
‘Peace’? From you? Why not sign off with ‘hugs and kisses’. What unmitigated gall and effrontery. You are disgusting. I say that with ABSOLUTE certainty that there isn’t a jury in the land that wouldn’t agree with me. The devil is incapable of sharing peace. Keep it to yourself. Troll dropping stink is almost impossible to get out once we get it on our clothing.
Fr. Tim
Yikes! ….certainly not the “forgiving” nerve is being affected. You are showing some color! I had some compliments all lined up for you and Steve before he “jabbed” prima facie.
Not insulted. Amused and justified by your first line:”ever heard of a smart phone or ipad!”…condescending confirmed! 2for 2!
You would be more loveable and believable if you got rid of the “Father” and called yourselves “Servant Moyle”, “Servant Ballard”.
I’m trying to be helpful! Be nice.
Hey!
jg
Typical.
Being lectured to by a lawyer on the question of ‘ethics’ is like having a hooker speak authoritatively on the subject of chastity!
Most amusing.
Steve: For God sake man, give some sort of ‘spew alert’ warning before making such an allusion. I just took out the tv and my iphone with a mouthful of coffee! Missed that last field goal running for some paper towels!
Tim
Haaaaaa
Ya and then the lawyer sends a two line letter to a client, with an attached invoice for $500 or $1000. What a scam.
Yikes!! And who said Canadians were boring!
your funny …lol
Well, well. Of course, I was expecting yet the most recent ranting and raging from Father Tim; there are plenty of those on this site. A lot of nothing. Be it known, that as offensive as you find my so-called insults, I find equally as offensive, your efforts to, as I see it, “keep the flock in the dark”. You and Father Steve, especially Father Steve (because of his previous positions held within the Church) are well versed on legal matters; this I find most distasteful; that is arguing from a legal perspective when most laymen know little and you or Father Steve know different.
You can call me all the names you want to Father’s Tim and Steve. Big Deal!!!
Oh, and The Pembroke Priests comment I wrote about? Wakey, wakey Father Tim. did you upset the crackers and beer watching the game—so-to-speak, of course; why so much upset? I simply remember many posts about a group of Pembroke Priests that were going to step forward and tell all. Whatever happened to them? Easy old boy-easy. By the way, your attempts to intimidate others by throwing the defamation, slander, libel card, is ill-informed.
What specific cases have been kept in the dark by Fr. Tim or me? Name one.
Or is ths just more hot air?
Exactly. Put up or shut up, Prima. You offer nothing but empty allegations. Give ONE example where we have failed to do our duty. If you don’t, then it means you have nothing and are completely self revealed as a fraud and a liar. You are the one who is making the allegation. You are obliged to provide the proof. You have never done so. You will not do so now, nor in the future because YOU KNOW NOTHING. Period.
Go Giants! We’re on the comeback. The Patriot defense is going to crumble as Eli wins the day.
Fr. Tim
As P.T. Barnum may have once said….”Is Everyone Having Fun?”
Sorry gotta go-“the nightshift”; let’s sing it together.
Gotta watch over those “hookers” Father Steve was mentioning in his last post.
Maybe we can pick this up again tomorrow.
Are you guys in the sauce? Read my post without anger.
Run, run for your life…………name one ……….. Cowardly cowardly gutter snakes
You are not worth the time…………why not share your actual name Mr Professional? What u scared of?
Steve: That’s easy to answer: the truth! The works of the dark side always do all they can to avoid the glare of the light of truth. He is an octopus, trying to escape within his self made inky mess. As I have stated before, he is adept in the dark arts… closely resembling the same values that Sylvia is addressing in the actions of the Church.
OMG… Ballard is hurt on the field!
Tim
Relative?
Fr. Tim Moyle and Fr. Steven Ballard,
Do you realize you are way over the posting limit of the day?
No wonder you have no line ups at confession time, it is so DIFFICULT to see Jesus in you both.
Please stop.
This is not a joke. You are scaring clergy abuse victims away.
Lina: OK. Truce. No one who legitimately possess information will be scared off though because we hand an impostor his head by pointing out that he is a lying. But there is no need to continue. We have made our point. It is wrong for people to accuse ALL priests for the crimes of a few. When people immorally and falsely liable us, we have every right to object. There is no problem for anyone who speaks the truth. No one who has followed these threads for more than a day or two will fail to see that Prima is a liar who does nothing more than peddle insults as allegations. If that scares you…. that’s your problem. Don’t presume to speak for others of whom you know little or nothing. That type of false pretense serves no good. If I am speaking truthfully, then what right have you to take offense? Are you my judge and keeper?
Fr. Tim
Lina, the reckless, unsubstantiated nonsense that SOME are putting forth does a disservice to the good work this blog intends.
There are limits to what one can say or write or do.
What Fr. Moyle and I need to do is twofold – assemble a National Assembly of Priests and as the first order of business retain the services of a team of lawyers who will scrutinize every single syllable that is typed on this blog.
Don’t attempt to manipulate me by your holy words or a fear that I am scaring any victim away from anything.
I have done more to challenge church authority and to attempt to assist in the protection of the laity than you will ever know.
Father Ballard: Your words to Lina were rather harsh; she wasn’t manipulating you with her holy words; just asking you “nicely” to give your heads a shake and stop monopolizing the site. Her sentiments definitely echoed mine. Sincerely..Suzanne Herrick-Lee ne Cybulski…. we share the same home town and alma mater; SJHS; you probably attended with my much younger sisters Jennifer and Theresa… I worked as a young teacher at Fatima with your Dad in early 70’s… a true gentleman!!
Suzanne and Lina- There is no need to be concerned about these 2 getting together a National Assembly of Priests. They have as much chance of doing that as they would be successful in herding 20 cats!
You think so eh?
My father never worked at Fatima in the early seventies or at any time. That aside, you may or may not be aware of some of the fanciful, deceitful and evil gossip that is being spread by Lina and others. Some have the gall to suggest that it would be great to have clergy engage in discussion in these matters and then have the nerve to suggest that Fr. Moyle or I have been keeping the laity in the dark. Rest assured, if people do not temper there remarks or provide evidence to back up their gossip, there will be many occasions when some of us are over-quota! I am sure you might feel the same way if roles were reversed concerning your profession.
Lina, can you hear in the background the singing of Bring in The Clowns, a piece of music written by some one after they met Fr. Moyle?
I counted Moyle- 12 postings (at least)
Ballard- 14 (at least).
Some Super Bowl Party- must be some strong Scotch Whiskey flowing up there today.
Sheep: Indeed the ‘spirits’ are good this evening. Good friends, a game on the TV, a diversion for the commercials, and a winning team and argument. Could not hardly be better. What’s the matter? Isn’t the point of this thread that the Church has not sufficiently revealed herself to the Police, public and parishioners? Now you complain when a couple of priests join in a conversation, virtually bringing you into their evening?
‘Be they hot or cold; but lukewarm I will spit them from my mouth’. These were true words 2000 years ago when my original boss spoke them and they are true today. If folks insist on having it both ways (hurling allegations/immune from the same) it’s akin to mixing hot and cold water. A tepid and tasteless tea good only for the grass and the ground. There is nothing wrong in pointing this out. If it takes 13-15+ posts to do this, so be it. It is hardly a common event. If as you have argued before the Church deserves to be bushwacked and hacked, then they should have no problem with a rare such demonstration here.
But, now it’s time to celebrate something that’s really important this evening: the 2012 Superbowl victory of the Giants over the Patriots in a great and exciting game. And I’m $10.00 the richer than I was five hours ago!
Bye for now.
Fr. Tim
(The ‘Non’-Anonymous!)
Diet Coke is all I have in my hand!
You might get a tad upset too if you were accused of some of the vile things that some of us have been accused of on this site. It is not normally in my nature to be so combative, but there are limits.
Anonymous folks telling tales without a whiff of substantiation. Their nonsense will not go unanswered. Sorry.
This sounds like the hollow threats used by Bishops to keep victims from going to the Police. Wont work anymore.
I want every victim to go to the police. I stand for nothing less. However, this site now supports open season on all priests, the promotion of gossip as fact and the conviction of individuals who have not even been charged with a single thing? Re-read the venom spewed by prima and jg. It was the starting point.
Everyone is off topic and have become very personal..please speak to me on how to handle the good (unblemished cleric) the bad (convicted cleric) and the ugly (cleric who have been accused and whose actions are doubtful) Speak to me about how to protect the children and young adults who need to know that responsible adults will stand together to stop these crimes from occurring in places where they seek solace from a power greater than themselves. Speak to me about plans to make the church a place that is safe for it’s members so that children and their caregivers can leave these places of worship with lightened hearts rather than burdened souls. Speak to me about loving and not about material, egos and selfishness. meditate a bit before castigating each other.
Servant Moyle,
That uncontrolled aggression towards Lina is frankly offensive, over the top. If you were a pinball game, that would be a “tilt”…
Remember that I am “the ignorant troll masquerading as a moral person”.
Watch the game, turn off your toys.
Going…gone!
jg
My apologies to you and Lina. Please put it down to an adrenalin surge as my Giants came back again in the 4th. Sometimes I can be too much ‘Tim, the Toolman’ when I should be Fr. Tim the priest, especially when my blood is up!
Sorry Lina.
That said, Giants rule again in 2012! Yes!!
G’Nite.
Fr. Tim
I believe it would be in order for everyone to reread Sylvia’s entry of Dec. 11/2011. It is called LIMITS.
I think most people here want to do what’s right. That’s the main thing. I also hear deep pain, and lashing out at strangers. While it might feel good for a while, I do not think it is really fair game or helpful to attack others when posting anonymously. If you’re lashing out in the dark – you’ll only hurt yourself. You want people to know you’re hurt – that is a start. I urge those people to seek good solid professional help and find healing. (I pray to God the church would provide that – a centre for help for victims/survivors).
Let’s all support victims by bringing the truth to light!
I’d say that, overall, this board does a great job in doing that.
peace to all.
I’m sorry to say, even with the Cornwall report in hand, the diocese of Bathurst refuse to pay professional help for about a dozen of victims of father Levi Noel and other pedophile priest. Hiring ex-judges Bastarache in paying out victims and offering no changes or no long term professional help is a major slap in the face of victims. Paying off victims that the priest pedophile, that are still living and working at other diocese, is what was done in the 50ties and 60ties, and the frigin media does’nt get it!!!!! When will this all end???
Jeez a lot of people cleric and otherwise walking around with two by fours stuck in their eyes tonight ..relax people think about how to support victims and how you instill an institution that has the capacity for protecting the innocent from abuse… cleric or otherwise. Truly this not making the good old RC church an attractive place to worship. I think Anne is another voice of reason here.
Fathers Ballard and Moyle, you have covered neither yourselves nor the priesthood in glory in the above threads. You have both had your say and then some. I trust you enjoyed ‘the game.’ If the pair of you want to pat each other on the back, sling further insults at those who blog on this site, set up a National Assembly of Priests, and/or hire a team of lawyers please hash it out on Father Tim’s site.
If the either or both of you go on a run like this again on this site you will be blocked – permanently.
Astonishing! At about 1:15pm today prima and jg erupt into arrogant and self-righteous talk, including the accusation that two priests have with full intent covered up cases in Pembroke. This is joined to a similar allegation by lost sheep about something he/she apparently knows out of Round Lake, Renfrew and Arnprior. And at the end of it all, nothing is said to challenge them, only the two priests. Absolutely amazing and shameful!
The unspoken inference is that ‘longtime’ mudslingers are a welcome part of your camp because they feed the selected narrative. Your agenda is obvious, as is your bias.
One final post: do us a favor and correct the spelling at the top. Its the ‘Enquirer’.
I repeat my post sent to Tim Moyle for you to consider.
A little prayer and meditation might be suggested or do you people still do this ? You self identify as cleric and should act accordingly. I had begun to have some respect for your view Tim however I would like to say that yesterday’s banter was alarming in that some restraint of pen and tongue may have been the better course to take as a men of the cloth. Nobody likes to see innocent men or women wrongfully judged however you must understand that once an allegation has been made regardless of outcome the Church should be responsible for making sure that no further access to children or that priest in doubt be placed in situations where children might be hurt. The listing of priest who have been named in such circumstances should not be given a carte blanche to continue their ministry without a modicum of concern for the potential for there having been an error in the process. Your found innocent and you are the adults so hence adjust yourself to that and serve the Church in a manner that removes all question and doubt and assures the safety of the flock. All the other stones cast where unnecessary.
You know what’s astonishing???
Prima Facie and JG are well known posters to this site. Those of us who have followed this site for the past number of years KNOW full well WHO they are!!! Very respected and credible persons!!!
I am absolutely disgusted with the above dialogue coming from the 2 Pembroke priests. Just because you 2 don’t know WHO it is that is posting and claim there actions are shameful and “mudslinging” that is no reason for the insults…it just goes to show how much in the dark the two of you really are!
My feeling also………… and I’ve only been here a moment ago! Victims needs, first, please.
Sylvia, it seems the “old boys club” has shown itself here with comments on one hand while sipping a brew and watching a football game at the same time. Why am I not surprised? The point is that the Bishop Harris was aware of Fr McGuire’s suspicious activity and with three people bringing up accusations…whether the police can actually make anything stick……is reason enough to believe that this priest…who takes kids on overnight outings….does that sound familiar…..??….is probably guilty. Yes, it will take a court of law to prove this…..but in light of this site and what it reveals…….I believe you have reason to mention his name. Maybe Fr McGuire…who I’m sure is reading this….might care to reply?
I have wondered why Steve and Tim feel so comfortable with their documented actions. Don’t they have an employer who may be getting copies on their desk today of these threats and insults… and who may question how this looks for the Diocese of Pembroke (or other bodies you two are accountable to)… Why would anyone approach you about anything – cleric abuse or otherwise. You sound completely unfit to deal with the public. So you have the funds to hire ‘a team of lawyers’….. are these funds donated by the faithful or do you have vast personal (family) resources to back you up. Gentlemen, I am stunned by your non-stop hissy-fit. I hope the media takes an interest.
I just got in from completing my “nightshift”-I never imagined the likes of the above taking place. So all of this has evolved from a perceived insult made to Father Steve by myself and/or JG? “Praise The Lord”…an insult. By the way, I have provided my name several times on this website. I used “prima facie” many years ago for obvious reasons. My name is James (Jamie) Porter Bateman and I was born in Thetford Mines, Quebec, Canada; for those of you who may feel I am too cowardly to provide my name.
Dear Fathers Steve, Tim,
You are not behaving like good shepheards! : Compassion and love. You are dealing here with victims of sexual abuse who are deeply hurt and betrayed ! You may be preaching from the pulpit about compassion and love every sunday. I doubt you really practice it in your lives. The word compassion comes from the two latin words which you must have learned in the seminary “cum”- “passion” which means “to suffer with .”
You certainnly are not doing any favour to the church or the good priests who are still out there by writing these offensive words.
“Receive the Gospel of Christ,
whose herald you have become.
Believe what you read,
Teach what you believe, and
Practice what you teach”. I am sure you remember these words you heard from your bishop at your ordination.
You may be big shots in your diocese but your behaviour is unacceptable. I am sure Sylvia and all who write on this site are well aware that there are many good priests and they appreciate them too.
You guys Father Tim and Steve people who write on this site are deeply hurt by the actions of your brother priests or bishops. You have to be in their shoes to understand it.
Be compassionate, kind hearted and try to understand the people who are deeply hurt by the actions of the priests ! I am very saddend by your late night comments!
(Fifth and last post of the day)
FFS: You write: ‘You guys Father Tim and Steve people who write on this site are deeply hurt by the actions of your brother priests or bishops. You have to be in their shoes to understand it.’ So true! Both ways! The obligations of compassion and justice flow both ways. There is a difference between the legitimate expression of pain from being personally harmed. It is entirely another matter to keen and wail falsely to the detriment of others.
If I start posting the everyone with the initial FFS in their name is either a predator or an enabler inflicting harm on children you would justly scream and legitimately take me to task… if not to court. (That’s why I wouldn’t say it… it’s not true!) I am truly saddened that you think it is acceptable to say the same about either of the two of us, and the rest of the clergy of the Diocese too if you think that we are all complicit in a criminal conspiracy to protect predators. Some of my brothers may not agree with the way either of us has spoken here, but none of them would question the suffering heaped upon our standing in the community through the malicious malfeasance of people here is unjust and unwarranted.
If you are a person of good will and cannot see the rightness of my argument, then the task ahead of all the clergy to rebuild the faith is indeed a daunting one indeed. It is hard enough to deal with the effects of the scandals as it is without the unchecked proliferation of toxic and false slander continually falling on our heads. Remember, ‘it’s hard when you’re up to the arse in alligators that your original objective is to drain the swamp’. It is immoral to falsely attack anyone. Period.
Fr. Tim
Father Tim,
I did not say that you have no right to defend or bring out the truth. There are many ways one can do it. My personal opinion is that the way you both handled the situation is not Christlike: compassion and love missing in your writings to a few of the victims or Blogers above.
I am a survivor. I am a survivor who found this site after my own story hit the front page of my local newspaper much to my horror and shock. I felt like I was alone and in the dark. This site was like a beacon of light and provided information that I couldn’t find anywhere. Lately I have been dealing with the flood of terribly painful memories and fighting every minute of every day to not fall back into the black hole of depression that I know all too well. I know what it is like to feel the horrible shame of being a victim and what it is like to feel worthless and expendable. What is new to me, is the helpless feeling of being a pawn in the unrelenting ego battle that I see all around me.
It took everything I had to read through the above posts and I am now truthfully sitting here with tears running down my face feeling even more numb and cynical than I did before. I want so desperately to believe that there is good in the church and that truth and goodness will prevail but it gets harder and harder to believe this with each passing day, and each ranting post. Everyone has their own agenda….apparently they are all self-serving agendas.
I wanted to believe that coming forward, telling my story would help someone. I want those responsible for enabling my abuser to be held accountable. I want them to understand what I have to live with every day because of the decisions they have made. I pressed charges, I came forward. I hoped it would help other victims and provide some insight into what it feels like to “walk in my shoes”. I have got to say….it hasn’t helped. I feel like sh%$! Helpless, empty, very tired and completely hopeless.
Lisa, God loves you so much as do so many people of goodwill. Do not lose hope. I pray for your healing and peace today. God bless you and surround you with his love! There is light on the other side of this darkness you now experience.
Steve, for someone who feels not high up on any pedestal , you claim to have privileged knowledge who God loves and who God condemns and coincidently it turns out that God’s likes and dislikes are identical with yours. Should we just call you and your brother “ Friar Tim” in your “stellar intelligence“ God ?
Dear Lisa,
You are very courageous to post your feelings here. Like all things internet, you never know know you’re going to meet on an anonymous message board, or how you’re going to feel. Along with a lot of open information here, which can bring healing and solidarity, there is also a lot of pain flying around on this board. This board is a public place. No open internet message board can guarantee that your problems will be handled with the care they deserve. I urge you to seek help from someone you trust, a health professional, a spiritual leader – in person. They will help you develop boundaries. Sometimes we can’t do it alone.
Anne C- “help me to develop boundaries”? Really? I find that to be very patronizing and condescending. First of all, you are making the assumption that I have not or am not currently seeking professional help. That is completely irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. I am not looking for sympathy or direction. I wrote the above statement to try and shed some light and perspective to the daily turmoil that survivors of Clerical Abuse deal with, what I am currently dealing with and how the narcissistic ranting on here takes away from what this site can be, a source of good. If for any reason you think I need a lesson on what the possible negative implications can be for writing personal “feelings” on a public forum you are mistaken. I do not.
Lisa,
I just read your post carefully tonight.
I miss reading it yesterday because of the two, you know who posters that went into some kind of wild west rampage.
This is very unusual what happened. I believe Sylvia is trying her best to clean up the mess they caused at this website.
Enough about those terrible twos.
Lisa, you express yourself very clearly in your post.
I wasn’t sure how to respond to you Lisa.
You challenged me to look inside myself.
Your are not just another faceless person that is experiencing very bad stuff that overshadows the good stuff.
Only you Lisa knows what is going on with you. The highs and the lows.
I will NOT pretend and say to you that I understand you.
That would be candy coated bull-sh$t.
What I will say to you Lisa, I did re-read your story and I’m glad you are a TRUE survivor that speaks her mind and wants others to know eventually they are not alone.
Many do read posts at this website as well as many others do not reply to postings or they don’t even post themselves.
I hope the odds are in your favor that somebody did mange to read your post.
I did.
Please post again Lisa!
Lina,
I read your posts everytime you “treated” us with the wisdom of your heart. I didn’t know what to say to Lisa…You said it all, very genuine not a word to add….big grin on my face, happy boy!
Thank You
jg
Thank You Lina for your kind words, but most of all, Thank You for “Getting It”.
You are welcome Lisa.
I was having a hard time logging on here. I was hoping to respond to you before I go to bed.
I was with my husband all day. His Dad, my father-in-law is 87yrs. old and he is dying at the Miramichi Lodge in Pembroke. The nurse told us it can be anytime she believes most likely within 24 to 48 hours.
She said it is up to us but it would be wise to get some rest and someone from the lodge will call us even during the night.
We just came home a short while ago.
Anyway I am glad I was able to log on before going to bed.
Take-care,
Lina
Lisa, I am so sorry that you and other victims were subjected to the nonsense which consumed this site for a couple of days. I think – and hope and pray – that things are now under control.
Every victim who comes forward helps another. You may not see that personally, but rest assured that your coming forward impacted someone somewhere who is silently suffering and struggling to do exactly what you did. It was not in vain Lisa. Never. You may meet someone a year from now, or three or more who tells you what an impact you had on their decision to speak out. You may not. But your decision to speak out was heard, and it did not fall on deaf ears.
Truth and goodness will prevail, but sometimes, as we all know only too well, it takes time.
Stay strong Lisa. Don’t doubt your decision, and keep reaching out to help those who are struggling. My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Perhaps the solution to threads gone wild is to focus on actual court cases and guilty parties instead of merely accused.
Court cases and guilty parties are often two completely different entities and that is what this site already does focus on. The solution is to ban from the site people who’s main concern is ” church image” and other even more superficial motives … and all under the insidious guise of “a profound desire to seek justice for the victims” and in the name of OUR Lord.
Perhaps the solution to threads gone wild is to focus on the accused, the trials, the sentencing, the Church’s response and the victims resulting from cleric (sexual) abuse. I find the armchair psychologists detract from a sharp focus on understanding and addressing damage caused by pedopriests. Understanding is key because prevention of cleric (sexual) abuse will be the gain. And the success of this site in doing so is astounding. I had the priviledge (well, to be honest it was hard work) of translating materials regarding Oblate Eric de Jaeger. I found the documents I translated defied belief. But as the case unfolded, the scope of abuse, the level of cover up, the blatant non-response from the Canadian government, the powerlessness of victims and the mountain of lies from the perpetrator (he was previously convicted) was found to be valid. And it all came together on this site. Now, Eric de Jaeger is a) deported from Belgium, b) accused on 39 counts; c) awareness has been raised; d) the isolation of cleric abuse victims in northern Canada — remember, we have geographic isolation as well — is achieved. That focus is powerful and unique on this site.
I agree with Lona on this one. My sole interest initially was to monitor the events shaping up with respect to the Dejeager and helping in whatever manner I could having been involved in the initial inquiries and conviction with that case it dissolved what little respect I had for the Roman Catholic Church and I might say it has not been reconciled since being involved in this site. I see a strong need to give as much support to the survivors of cleric abuse one of the means is as Lona details is gaining an understanding of their concerns, feelings and their traumas. I don’t think the Church has their best interest at heart given the self-seeking attitudes they expend their resources upon and how they fight giving any support to victims. It may change however but 20 years ago I was confronted by a bishop who claimed that his dioceces had no money for such things and a priest who attended court with a badge on his parka saying “everyone makes mistakes” it does not seem to be shaping up to be any different.
My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family Lina. I will take your reaching out to me as a strong indication that your kindness and goodness will bring great comfort to your husband and the rest your family during this very difficult time.
Lisa
We did receive a call Lisa during the night that my father-in-law was very low.
We got there at 1:30 a.m. and stay all night.
Family members from out of town arrived today to help out. My husband’s sister and her husband are staying overnight at the long term facility to keep watch while we get some rest.
There is a daughter from Saskatchewan coming by bus and due to arrive tomorrow night hoping to see her Dad before he dies.
Lisa thank you for your prayers.
Lina
Lina dear. my thoughts and prayers are with you all during these painful last hours.
Sylvia,
I caught your posting to me before signing off for the night.
I sincerely thank you for your prayers.
Goodnight,
Lina
Sylvia & Lisa and all other folks,
My father-in-law who I call Dad died early this morning.
Many thanks for your support in prayers.
Sincerely,
Lina
I pray for the repose of the soul of your dear “Dad” Lina. May he rest in peace.
I used to go to this church…I was a member when we lost Father Smith…I’ve been through a lot as a Catholic…It has cost me relationships…Cost me to lose family and friends…
If the man molested children we deserve to know…If the man took a nervous breakdown or something of the like…guess what… we deserve to know that too!
He is OUR priest and it is OUR parish…
Why can’t the diocese simply make a statement?
This was actually the straw that broke the camels back for me…
I realized they keep us in the dark…they hold them selves above us and away from us…I don’t feel I can trust a priest…a bishop…they with hold from me…why should I share anything with them?
I don’t know what I am any more… My faith in the church is dying a slow death I can feel it.
Dale you said: “My faith in the church is dying a slow death I can feel it.”
I feel the same way Dale.
Those questions you asked yourself is similar to mine.
I’m starting to believe Dale, ‘they keep us in the dark’ because it’s worse than they want us to know.
Try to hang in there Dale, and Lina. Try to hold on. As difficult as it seems, try to hold on. Don’t let all of these predators have yet another victory – they’ve had far too many as it is.