Like everyone else 30 years ago, the Church failed to understand paedophilia

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Some respected campaigners even regarded it as a civil right

Catholic Herald (CatholicHerald.co.uk)

By William Oddie on Monday, 18 October 2010

Over the weeks before the papal visit, during which unprecedented attacks on the Catholic Church (as a supposedly endemically paedophile organisation) and the Pope in particular (as being allegedly guilty of repeated cover-ups of priestly child abuse) formed the most frequent articles of indictment used by the vicious atheist campaign against the visit, most of us could not imagine how it would ever prove to be the dazzling success that it was, or how the Holy Father would ever so gently reduce Dawkins, Tatchell et al to utter irrelevance.

The charges against Pope Benedict in particular had been seen by most of the media not to stand up to close examination. But that left the shame of the Catholic Church over child abuse by a tiny number of its priests, and the cover-up and the moving on by a number of dioceses of priests accused of this detestable crime.

I argued, some of you will remember, that the percentage of clergy involved is no higher than that in other religious denominations or in the population at large, with one notable survey emanating from Stamford University claiming that it was actually smaller (between three to five per cent of priests against eight per cent of males in the American population). That doesn’t make it any better for the victims of clerical abuse, of course: but we need to understand that the scandal is not that our priests are particularly prone to child abuse, but that we are all too representative as a sample of the population, when we should be setting an example to it.

Nor even is the accusation against some bishops, that they covered up the abuse and moved the perpetrators on, actually untypical of secular behaviour (cf for example, the American school system: though, again, it is not therefore in any way excusable). I have argued all this before, and those who want my evidence and arguments must go to my previous blogs on the subject.

There is one further point that needs to be made, however. Most of the cases of paedophile or (more often) ephebophile (teenage) sex abuse that have emerged over recent years took place decades ago, many in the 70s and 80s, when a very different view was taken by some of what we all without exception now know to be both a revolting crime and a sexual perversion particularly resistant to treatment or therapy. There really were some people who actually thought that paedophilia was a civil right. I was reminded of this by an accusation, made somewhere in cyberspace recently, against politicians supposedly guilty 30 years ago (I say nothing about whether this accusation was justified or not) of complicity in supporting paedophile organisations now long since dead.

Certainly at the time public support for paedophilia, though subject to hostile attack in the press, was not unknown. In the early 80s, the National Council for Civil Liberties (now Liberty), according to the Daily Telegraph, “wanted the age of consent to be lowered to 14 and incest decriminalised. It also defended self-confessed paedophiles in the press and allowed them to attend its meetings… Among the groups affiliated to NCCL were the Paedophile Information Exchange and Paedophile Action for Liberation, whose members argued openly for the abolition of the age of consent.”

Nobody says that the response of the Church was in any way adequate. But it did know that paedophile and ephebophile behaviour were profoundly wrong. What the Church didn’t understand any better than anyone else did was its nature. As a result, too many bishops thought that a combination of penitence and therapy (which we now understand rarely works) was a proper response.

To the dreadful pain and lasting damage of too many victims, they were wrong, utterly wrong. But these were almost unimaginably different times. We have all, and not least the Church, moved on. We need to understand that.

About the author 

William Oddie

  • Dr William Oddie is a leading English Catholic writer and broadcaster. He edited The Catholic Herald from 1998 to 2004 and is the author of The Roman Option and Chesterton and the Romance of Orthodoxy.

Showing 16 comments

Christinemariehickey

There is so much distortion, incorrect information, rewriting of history, false statistics, and pure nonsense in this article that I wouldn’t know where to begin to refute it all. This unprofessional attempt at journalism literally makes me feel ill. I hope that no reader accepts this man’s opinions as fact, as he is clearly biased, misinformed, and apparently comfortable with going to any measure to try to make his point.  

Brian Westley

What a horribly self-serving article; the main problem has always been how the RCC stonewalls criminal investigations, often with the cooperation of the local police. The vatican still refuses to issue clear orders to have all allegations of illegal activity investigated by police — not “investigated” by clerics who, at best, are rank amateurs at criminal investigation and at worst have a vested interest in covering up wrongdoing.

The solution is simple. All criminal allegations need to be investigated by local law enforcement. That’s what they’re FOR.

Bwaj  in reply to Brian Westley

Utter lies

Jack Barry

Notable Catholics wrote with harsh clarity and understanding about the problem of sexual abuse nearly 1000, 500, and 50 years ago – St. Peter Damian (Book of Gomorrah 1049), Pope Pius V (Horrendum 1568), and Father Fitzgerald (letters 1950s-60s). Dismissing responses of recent decades on the grounds of ignorance by their successors is unsupportable in an institution that claims such strong devotion to history, tradition, and wisdom from the past.

You misrepresent the implications of recent events. What is known is that many recent _reports_ of abuse concern incidents that occurred long ago. For understandable reasons which many describe, victims are not inclined to report promptly when abused. Unless you assume that, somehow, the human nature of deeply wounded victims has just changed in some fundamental ways, most youngsters being abused this afternoon should not be expected to find the strength, courage, and inspiration to report the crime for many years.

The truth could free us all. 

Dave

 You really need to get the facts correct. First, your statement about “that the percentage of clergy involved is no higher than that in other religious denominations or in the population at large” is based on what the Church has reported. It is based on their own internal investigation and self reporting. In the USA, there were 7 dioceses that were investigated by an independent source (either district attorney or grand Jury). In all 7 cases, the percentage of abusive clergy was nearly double what those dioceses had reported in the Church’s internal investigation. All 7 showed a consistent 10% of abusive priests. It makes you wonder about the self-reporting of the other dioceses and their honest reporting. It also shows that those dioceses that were investigated, the percentage of abusive clergy is above the general population. Please lets not base our facts on what the Church self-reports. They have a vested interest ins keeping the percentage low.  

Bwaj  in reply to Dave

 I suggest you read ‘THE JOHN JAY REPORT’ which was conducted by http://usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/

‘CHILD SEX SUPPORTER TATCHELL TO SPEAK AT GREENBELT’ (19 July 2010)
http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/Press/press162.html

‘PETER TATCHELL AND THE PAEDOPHILE BOOK’ (20 February 2010) http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/Press/press146.html tells us Tatchell wrote a chapter titled ‘Questioning Ages of Majority and Ages of Consent’ in the 1986 book ‘THE BETRAYAL OF YOUTH: Radical Perspectives on Childhood Sexuality, Intergenerational Sex, and the Social Oppression of Children and Young People’ which was edited by Warren Middleton ‘vice-chairperson’ of the Paedophile Information Exchange http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/Press/press146.html Peter Tatchell’s chapter preceded a chapter by Roger Moody titled ‘Ends and Means; How to Make Paedophilia Acceptable’. A list of chapters and their authors can be found here http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/Press/press146a.html and more information on the book’s contributors can be found here: http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/Press/The%20Betrayal%20of%20Youth.pdf

‘Peter Tatchell – What a Hypocrite!’ (12th September 2010) http://www.christianvoice.org.uk/Press/press164.html
‘Question: Who said: ‘Not all sex involving children is unwanted and abusive’? Answer: The Pope’s biggest British critic’ http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1311193/PETER-HITCHENS-Question-Who-said-Not-sex-involving-children-unwanted-abusive-Answer-The-Popes-biggest-British-critic.html

‘THE RC GAY SEX SCANDAL – ABUSE OF THE TRUTH’ By Stephen Green www.christianvoice.org.uk/Press/press165.html

Bwaj  in reply to Bwaj

 THE JOHN JAY REPORT’, is known fully as ‘The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Catholic Priests and Deacons in the United States’ http://usccb.org/nrb/johnjaystudy/ was conducted by the John Jay College of Criminal Justice and was commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops.  

Ted  in reply to Dave

 Dave,

If you have any sources that we can read about the level of abuse being twice that reported I would certainly be interested to read them.

Ted  

Afrybarger 

Bwaj  in reply to Dave 

I really think you should shut up Dave because you are totally uninformed on this subject.

Saunders9

 If anyone (including a priest) abuses a child he should be prosecuted. I can’t think of a more heinous crime than this. All I here are excuses. The Church is a laughing stock over this, and some Catholics have stopped going to church because of it. I just think there is a false sense of forgiveness in the Church. I’m all for forgiveness but that don’t mean even priests are above the law. But as St Paul said, ‘in the last days people would have a form of godliness, but deny it’s power. Avoid them!’ Priests who can abuse children are frauds, excommunicate them and prosecute them for the sake of everyone and especially the little children who deserve to maintain there innocence. However, from reading the article, nothing will change and I will have to keep on taking the anti-catholic abuse I take day in and day out about priests interfering with children, and all I can say, ‘I do not understand what they do.’  

John A Brown

The following gives a present day view and understanding of the experience of survivors of clergy abuse and the continuing cover up. http://www.molestedcatholics.com/Not-in-my-lifetime

Be shocked by the global estimates of the numbers of those sexually abused by Catholic clergy. http://www.molestedcatholics.com/Estimating-the-numbers-global.php#stats

A brief review of the available literature of 30 years ago will show that this issue was well know and described. It is only the Catholic church which has this tainted view. There were many who wrote on the Briggs and Alice Miller are 2 that come to mind, however there were many others.

Oddie is entitled to his religious beliefs, however he crosses the line when he attempts to distort history to suit his religious agenda  

Prw52

 Yes, we must move on. Just like the Jews have moved on since the Holocaust. Nonsense. The Church hasn’t moved on from anything. The abuse was the direct result of Vatican II–lax seminarian standards were initiated which resulted in the mess. Has this standard changed? Has the twisted, modernistic design of parish churches been abandoned? Have the devotional statues been replaced that were destroyed by my local church? Has the ancient Latin Rite been reinstated in ALL parishes? Has the influence of the Masonic, Jewish, and Protestant originators of Vatican II been overcome? Has the wayward apologies of Koran-kissing anti-popes been diluted? Will once-sacred music be heard again over the furor of guitars and drums? Will the Holy Eucharistic NOT be placed in the hand? Will the ridiculous “handshake of peace” be gone forever at the Consecration of the Mass? Will the altar be turned around to face God instead of the people? Will the sacred Latin be used as it had been for near two thousand years? Until these issues are reversed, the so-called “unprecedented attacks” on the Church shall continue. The Church is going to have to learn what President Obama will soon learn: the faithful have had enough!

Bwaj  in reply to Prw52 

It has nothing whatsoever to do with Vatican II – such cases are higher among Protestants, non-Christian religions, secularism and in the Catholic Church before 1978 when Pope John Paul II became Pope.

Bwaj  in reply to Prw52

We do not have any ‘anti-Pope’ – however, heretics who claim any Catholic who does not use the extraordinary form of the Mass is damned should repent before he ends up in Hell.  

Prw52   in reply to Bwaj 

Well, as far as my ending up in Hell, Bwaj, I have less to worry about than child molesting priests and the Popes that hid the abuse. As the Virgin Mary warned in many apparitions, the Modernist infiltration of the Church (a direct result of Vatican II), is responsible for the current problems facing the Church.

47 Responses to Like everyone else 30 years ago, the Church failed to understand paedophilia

  1. Sylvia says:

    Apologists like this we do not need! Unbelievable!!!

  2. Michel B. says:

    I know, I thought it was very bad too, minimises and makes comments that sweep the real problems facing individuals all over the world with these kinds of breach of trust under the proverbial rug. Like hearing somebody say look around w’er not that bad. or better yet someone coming out of a root cellar after the hurricane took the house and says nothing wrong here ma.

  3. Tony says:

    As a victim…how do I move on when in 1993 Ken Keeler pleaded guilty to such crimes and the church has yet to appologize to me or the other victims and they have yet to pray publically for us?

    There are public statements of admittance that mean nothing to me because they did not come from the very source that doubted me or made attempts to destroy my character in supprt of their own cover up…it is not only a public matter William, it is very life defining and personal to the victims, so make every effort to personalize the appology and then open your arms to let us in…wether we walk in will at least be our choice. While we are at it don’t forget the role that the judicial system played in not taking the crimes serious enough to sentance more sternly or even consider them more heinous 20 years ago.

    A clssic example was the minimal time Keeler served and then was put in a halfway house on the very street I lived on…Believe it!

    I to this day do not feel welcome back but do have the desire. The moving on cannot possibly happen until we are all appologized to and all efforts are made to bring us back.

    http://theinquiry.ca/Keeler%20Orator%201993.pdf

    If you have a moment go ahead and read the “good Character Charade” from the above link and focus on the comments of he Judge at the time. Sylvia if this link does not work I am hoping that you can amend it for me.

    Kind regards,

    Tony

  4. Sylvia says:

    I didn’t realize that Keeler had been put into a halfway house on your street Tony. Talk about rubbing salt into open wounds!

    You are right Tony. Never mind all the blanket apologies. Where personal apologies for the sexual abuse can be made, let them be made. And where bishops refused to believe the victims that a priest later convicted priest was molesting, let there be an apology. And where bishops who claim to have apologised did not, let there be another apology.

    There are many apologies in order.

    Michel, your anology is great. My biggest problem is with the premise that ‘we did it because everyone did.’ We hear that from children – I don’t expect to hear it from grown men, particulalry when it relates to the sexual abuse of children by priests.

  5. JohnB says:

    Apologies I have by the hundred
    Prayers I have by the thousand
    None of these have made a single difference in my life

    The church has no moral value to offer society or victims, the only thing the church has of value is the money they valued above our lives and our right to justice and it is the very thing that the church is unwilling to return to those abused for the destruction of their lives.

    The church still values its properties and money more than it values the lives and rights of survivors of clergy sexual abuse. It still values its money and power more than the lives of our children today.

  6. Sylvia says:

    A sincere apology is important to many victims JohnB. I don’t know your situtation but I would guess that a forced apology given on legal advice and not through true contrition will sound hollow and leave a victim feeling empty and perhaps angry.

  7. Sylvia,
    You’ve hit upon an important point when you mention the legal and insurance issues. I have asked why it is that our Diocese has not made a personal and sincere apology for the abuses here and was told that the insurance company lawyers said that if we did this, they would consider themselves released from any liability and the Diocese would be left to pay any settlements on its own.

    This is (IMO) hardly a justification as in my eyes it places the concerns of money ahead of the concern for the victims. I do however admit that when we are speaking about amounts of dollars that reach into the millions, the Diocese has to decide if its proper to take the accumulated savings of generations of donations and spend them in this way. It is not as ‘black & white’ when one is responsible to measuring the respective needs of the individual victims and the financial welfare of the Diocese as a whole.

    Let me also state that this financial pressure is foisted on victims as well. I have a gentleman who is a parishioner who is part of the law suits against a neighboring diocese. When he told his lawyer that he would consider dropping his financial demands in exchange for a sincere apology, he was threatened with a crippling law suit from the legal firm representing him! Such is the fate of those who entered into these suits on a contingency payment basis.

    EVERYONE in these matters are being abused AGAIN by the legal and financial affairs involved. It is a TRAGEDY heaped upon a DISASTER!

    Fr. Tim

  8. Sylvia says:

    There was much talk of this apology business at the Cornwall Public Inquiry. The need of apologies is recognized, and it is I would add known that many victims start the disclosure process seeking an apology: period.

    My recollection is that a system has been hammered out whereby an apology can become part of a settlement without thereby denoting any admission of guilt.

    It’s rather sad that Church officials have come to this – dictated to and guided by insurance companies and lawyers rather than love of God, Church and flock.

  9. Tony says:

    Father Tim,

    I can guarantee you that in our case an early admission and appology and steps put in place to help keeler would not have brought our case to court, let alone litigation….a little bit of humble pie and compassion would have saved them millions around the world…but Father Tim, really, what is millions when you have billions? I think we see it a little differently here….the church didn’t take into account the the efforts of all those who donated for generations, if they did, they would have made larger effforts to stop the insanity.

    Instead of spending small aounts of our money on prevention they spend 100X that on intervention…and are still spending! Does this make sense to you?

    The Gentleman you speak of, (that in exchange of a sincere appology he would drop the case)do you not think that the civil case would have even happened if the sincere appology came first? Think about that.

    I also want you to know that personal appologies are still not happenning even after the threat of litgation is passed. There is no way that the church can be touched financially by some of the victims due to cases being settled yet still no personal appology?

    Spending a dime on a phone call to me 20 years ago to myself my brother and 3 best freinds would have been a dime well spent.

    I would trade in any amount of money to have my memories of the most defining and innocent moments of my life returned.

    Fatehr Tim, the legal system wouldn’t have the opportunity to heap disater on this tragedy without the arrogance the church leaders acted with.

    No father Tim they were not carefull with our money, they were completely and utterly careless.

  10. Michel B. says:

    Imagine how much money, property and donors gifts would have been saved and put to honourable use if no abuse had occured. Imagine how many tortured souls would be free spirited and closer to God and to a church that carried the message of Christ if no abuse had occurred. Imagine how little the church would have to expend of it’s significant resources to defend itself and try to save face if no abuse had occured. Thats how it should have been in the first place but it did and the cost and chaos that is resultant is clearly the responsibility of the abusers and their protectors.

  11. Sylvia,
    I am not offering an excuse for the Church. The manner that these affairs have been dealt with has been inexcusable.

    As to the millions/billions argument, I can assure you that our little Diocese most certainly does not have billions! That’s really the rub I was trying to explain. Bishops are responsible for managing and protecting the resources of their own diocese. There is no giant pool of cash that belongs to the entire Church… it’s all broken into smaller amounts belonging to different dioceses.

    IMO, if these predators had been effectively and efficiently dealt with at the time, with authentic apologies and punishments applied, we would not be facing the tidal wave of anger that threatens the financial viability for various dioceses and orders.

    Fr. Tim

  12. OOPS. Sorry Sylvia. My last comment was directed to remarks from Tony and not from you. I trust he’ll read it even though it’s addressed to you.

    Fr. Tim

  13. John says:

    Father Tim……How is that the church is preaching finances and law, instead of morals and values?

    John Mac Donald

  14. Cheryl Helena Delacroix Thomson says:

    An instructive analogy presents itself in the news today regarding Colonel Williams. And no, I am not off-topic… not at all, as you will see.

    In the situation with the Catholic Church, the point was brought up above in a response to Oddie’s piece in “The Catholic Herald” to the effect that in recent decades seminaries may have been at fault. Indeed, evidently seminaries have not been scrupulous in weeding out students with homosexual tendencies. Does Vatican II have something to do with this development? Who knows? In fact, according to various reports, sometimes ONLY homosexuals seem to have been welcome to continue their studies, while heterosexuals felt ostracized, perhaps even seriously enough to actually drop out.

    The liability question then becomes not a parish responsibility, but a systemic hierarchical responsibility within the Roman Catholic Church ‘corporation’, whether on a regional, national, or transnational basis.

    Regarding the sexual attacks perpetrated by Colonel Williams, it is interesting that his immediate guilty pleas have had the effect (or, I have to wonder, the specific, premeditated intention) of focussing attention on his guilt as an individual — while completely omitting investigation which I now realize is urgently needed into the military culture and training of the Canadian, as well as American, armed forces. My source is former U.S. Air Force Commander, Dorothy Mackey.

    While working for the Inspector General Commander of the U.S. Air Force, and Commander Mackey was shocked to discover that there are five military books in U.S. law which give military members absolute immunity for raping, maiming, or killing their own people, civilians, or global citizens (sic). These regulations are contained in:

    * The Feres Doctrine
    * The Bivens Doctrine
    * Intra Military Immunity
    * U.S. Code 552a

    Lawsuits on this issue have gone before the U.S. Supreme Court twice, without remedying this culture of abuse.

    Commander Mackey personally has testified that during the first five years of her military service, she was raped three times. Her story is included in the first of a two-part video entry on YouTube, originally posted in 2007 by Rosaryfilms, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDO9a03oZY0

    In Canada, stories of women recruits suffering sexual attacks have never penetrated the ‘iron curtain’ of the mainstream media, but anecdotal tales, ‘hearsay’, have been circulated widely for many, many years. If someone like me has heard these stories, and I have absolutely no connection with military people, I would think others have a lot more knowledge of this matter than I. It is one of those ‘sensitive topics’ people just don’t discuss, apparently, except usually among immediate family.

    According to Dorothy Mackey, whom I tried to telephone this evening unsuccessfully, as her number has been changed, the military policy of using sex as not only a weapon, but as a perk, in the military, is a common practise. It has spiraled out of control to sometimes involve not only rape, but murder… a contingency obviously provided for in military law. And you don’t have to be in the Congo somewhere. You can be in American or Canadian uniform, anywhere in the world, even on a base in Ontario, according to the aunt I know of a young woman who left the Canadian Forces in haste several years ago.

    In May of 2010, Dorothy Mackey posted the following online:

    “Yes, forced sex trafficking is written into U.S. international policies with all nations the U.S. occupies… (On) bases without sex slaves from foreign nations, leadership grooms military women, kids, spouses and baby-faced men to be sex slaves for them… known as the secreted “Whore Corps”. Command leadership have rules. Only officers can rape officers and anyone else, they are after all property of the U.S. military. Enlisted can only rape enlisted, kids & spouses of enlisted. Senior NCOs are “gifted” with drugging & rape of officers upon their retirement. Many of these forced sex slaves HAD sex abuse in their childhood, military knew of these traits coming in… Folks, the human sex trafficking inside the military is as extensive as the Catholic church…

    “Their lives change forever, like a roadside bomb going off on an ongoing basis — and your own did it…NOT one U.S. GENERAL involved in sexual felony crimes has EVER gone to prison; of the over 30 senior officers, they are NOW hiding felony sexual expolitation under Non Judical Punishment Article 15s. NOT even FBI can get the facts thanks to Congress’s law protecting sex deviants over America’s kids.

    “I am NOT anti-military; I am angry when mom’s pf once good young men, cry telling me “WHAT did the military do to my boy.” He was NEVER like this BEFORE he went into the military”. These guys had x-girlfriends who can vouch they were largely good guys… The military says they are Not contributing to these crimes. Just like the Pope, he says the same thing…

    “I took classes in Rape Crisis in the late 70’s. The dynamics of rape trauma were well-established from the Japanese & German rape camps. The U.S. just employed it against its own… So YOU, America have to wait and hope your kids aren’t raped and killed..by lethal rapists from the military like Polly Klaas was by Richard Allan Davis, or Shawcross, or Westley Allan Dodd who was arrested in the Navy for rape of kids on & off base, DoD discharged him so he could go on to rape & murder kids. The government DOES NOT know how to fix it, so they lie to you. And will NOT let those of us who do know how to fix it help! God save us all!”

    While Dorothy Mackey has, I believe, never studied in depth the related issues in the Roman Catholic Church, specializing in research with military personnel and their families, what she has described in print and in interviews is that traumatizing child abuse, and the exploitation of women, who may someday be future mothers – eventually even compliant, enabling mothers in the most horrifying of scenarios – is now endemic within large organizational structures — not because of aberrant, dysfunctional individuals, but because of corporate policy, for corporate ends.

    For the Roman Catholic Church, I believe that ‘the enemy within’ has implanted a time bomb which is now exploding. It is what I would call a pre-planned demolition.

    The destruction of the Roman Catholic Church has been the goal all along. It is almost completed.

  15. Larry Green says:

    Fr. Tim Moyle,
    An arguement has been advanced by a victim of clerical sexual abuse which basicaly reasons that any attempt to the restoration of justice must include monetery compensation and, plus , in addition to, a sincere apology because its the right and just thing to do.
    You explicitly refer to your propositions as an ” explanation ” rather than as an arguement.
    ” The insurance companies has told someone that told someone else that if an apology is given then they will leave the diocese high and dry.” ” When one is responsible to measuring the respective needs of individual victims and the financial welfare of the diocese it is not as black and white.” ” Our little diocese only has millions of dollars because the billions of dollars are broken down.” – Looks like an arguement to me Fr Tim Moyle and not an explanation as you say it is. Looks like an arguement that offers support to a claim that the diocese does have an excuse for not offering an apology and not even money for that matter.”
    I don’t think the insurance companies said any such thing. Nothing could be more black and white than the fact that the church should apologize to the victims without any financial , image , or other considerations whatsoever.
    Whether one diocese has 10 million dollars and another 10 billion dollars is ( and should be )of absoluteley no concern or worry to the victim .
    It sure ia an arguement you’ve offered here and it sure is shaded with the fallacy of ” appealling to pity”

  16. Tim says:

    It has long been my opinion the complete problem of disobedience, sex crimes, and power-hungry Clergy will only be solved when the Roman Catholic Church is bankrupt financially!!! Money IS the root of all evil- and when it is gone, true Christianity will rise and shine. It will not mean the destruction of the Church- it will herald the rising again of the True, Holy, and Apostolic Roman Catholic Church for the World to once again turn towards for Spitirtual guidance. Tim

  17. mother says:

    This is so true..power hungry clergy need to be brought to their knees…they are the evil of the church

  18. Lina says:

    “Fr. Tim said in post #11: IMO, if these predators had been effectively and efficiently dealt with at the time, with authentic apologies and punishments applied, we would not be facing the tidal wave of anger that threatens the financial viability for various dioceses and orders.”

    If these Catholics Fr. Tim in authority would had done their jobs in the Pembroke Diocese nevertheless they did not. If this Diocese gets hits bad financially I for one will not be sad.

    It is only a matter a time you will see more church closings.

  19. Faith and hope says:

    It is very sad and heart breaking to hear the stories of child abuses by a few priests of the Roman catholic church. From going through this web page I understand, some of the people who write on this page were abused by priests when they were children.
    God is certainlly present in the church and also with the victims of any kind of abuse.I pray that God give strength, hope and faith to all victims of clergy abuse.
    We should not forget that there are countless good priests who are good shepheards. There are cases which the church knew and did not take immediate action, also there are cases that the church did not know. it is very hard to know what is going through a person or who a person really is, like Colonel Williams story. No one ever imagined that he is such a person, including hisown wife who lived with this man for many years! So the cases of some of the priests are the same. Their purpose to join the seminary must have been different and authorities failed to detect the probles in these men. When we look at all the priests who are accused, without any exception, were in the best and biggest parishes of their diocese, had high positions, lots of money, influence and friendship with the bishop or higher authorities. There were not even one priests who worked in small parishes or lead an ordinary life who are being accused of child molestation. So I wonder some of these people got in to high position in the church through their crooked ways. Even today I have seen priests who are friendly with the bishops becomes Msgrs. (even if they have not done any extra ordinary works) pastors in big parishes( where they have plenty of money to spend). Fr.Tim’s concern about the diocese in understandable. When a a diocese is brankrupt, it affects the priests of the diocese also. It is like someting happens in a family.
    In spite of all the short comings we all should seek and draw comfort from the church, it’s good priests, it’s teachings. Millions even today find comfort and hope in the catholic church. Remember, most of the church goers do not even know about it, and some of them say it happens even in the families. May God give comfort and hope to all victims of child abuse.

  20. Lina says:

    (post #19)’Faith and hope’said in quotations:

    “It is very sad and heart breaking to hear the stories of child abuses by a few priests of the Roman catholic church.”

    It is sadder & heart breaking to read that you ‘Faith and hope’ said by a few priests! I hope it is a typo error on that number?

    “From going through this web page I understand, some of the people who write on this page were abused by priests when they were children.
    God is certainlly present in the church and also with the victims of any kind of abuse.I pray that God give strength, hope and faith to all victims of clergy abuse.”

    That’s good. I will give you credit for saying that. Prayers are good! Those who have information to help victims should go to the police as soon as possible.

    “We should not forget that there are countless good priests who are good shepheards.”

    The odds are there that there are good priests but I am not sure which ones are. I trust God, but I’m having a hard time trusting priests right now.

    “There are cases which the church knew and did not take immediate action, also there are cases that the church did not know. it is very hard to know what is going through a person or who a person really is, …”

    Which ones the church clergy knew about or not? Only the victims know for sure but they are being silenced in many ways. The ways are too numerous to count. Shame on those clergy & folks that will not help them.

    “like Colonel Williams story. No one ever imagined that he is such a person, including his own wife who lived with this man for many years! So the cases of some of the priests are the same.”

    That well may be.

    “Their purpose to join the seminary must have been different and authorities failed to detect the probles in these men. When we look at all the priests who are accused, without any exception, were in the best and biggest parishes of their diocese, had high positions, lots of money, influence and friendship with the bishop or higher authorities. There were not even one priests who worked in small parishes or lead an ordinary life who are being accused of child molestation.”

    Oh really!…Wow…you do a lot of assuming. You must have one heck of an inside track in the inner workings of the Catholic Church. The image of the Church is important to you but at what price?

    “So I wonder some of these people got in to high position in the church through their crooked ways. Even today I have seen priests who are friendly with the bishops becomes Msgrs. (even if they have not done any extra ordinary works) pastors in big parishes( where they have plenty of money to spend).”

    Crooked ways? You have seen priests friendly with Bishops? I’m wondering if you are a priest with info that can help victims?

    “Fr.Tim’s concern about the diocese in understandable.”

    Of course Fr. Tim’s concern about the diocese is understandable. After all, his own parish, ‘St. Anne’s’ is having financial troubles. He said so on his blog
    He has a donation icon. Check at:
    http://www.frtimmoyle.blogspot.com

    “When a a diocese is brankrupt, it affects the priests of the diocese also. It is like someting happens in a family.”

    Of course bankruptcy is bad I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

    “In spite of all the short comings we all should seek and draw comfort from the church, it’s good priests, it’s teachings. Millions even today find comfort and hope in the catholic church.”

    Isn’t free choice wonderful!

    “Remember, most of the church goers do not even know about it,”

    Many folks choose not to know these clergy abuse facts because they do not want to be disturb from their big comfy Catholic chair. Pretending clergy abuse doesn’t happen, will not make it disappear. Brave victims are coming forward every day. They need our prayers & support.

    “..and some of them say it happens even in the families.”

    It may happen in families but we are talking about the abuses & the hidden ones in the Catholic Church here.

    “May God give comfort and hope to all victims of child abuse.”

    Sincerely, I say…Amen,…… to that last sentence. I also pray that those in authority would find courage & do the right thing for the victims.

  21. Faith and hope says:

    Lina,
    I think you need some help. Why don’t you go for some counseling. You have been very negative to everyone who speaks something good about the Catholic church. If there is a church in the world which is good,that is the catholic church. 99.9% priests of the Catholic church are good priests. You may have different opinion. I do not care about what you think about my opinions and views.
    Your words or opinions and views is similar to a barking dog which is tied to a Pole which can no way attack any one because it is tied to a pole.
    Do you think the church is bothered about your comments?I do not think so. You may be angry at the church, but there are billions who are not. They are not angry at the church, but angry at individuals who committed crimes against children.I wonder sometimes, what is the purpose of some of you write on this page , whether it is just to express your anger and frustration , or is to help and support the victims of abuse?? Any way I wish you, Lina, good luck with your effort.
    Why don’t you make a tour to the catholic churches on sunday for Masses and ask the people about their priests and their faith. You may not find anyone who are against it. Ofcourse go to the streets and meet the people who do not go to church, you will have many supporters and they will agree to your opinions.
    The person who run this web page, Sylvia, certainlly is an intelligent woman and others who write, most of them some times write back and forth, pating each others back like mad people. You also have been doing this several times.That is why I wrote in the begining you need some counseling or any other help you can receive.

  22. Michel B. says:

    I agree with you F&H there exists many good persons in the Catholic Church as in other religous organizations however I doubt that 99.9 percent are pure, give me the basis for that stat. The whole fabric of the church has been tainted by this scandal. Belgium, Ireland and the United States are posting a lot higher percentage of disclosed abuses than your stat and we can only guess at the real numbers as many are not coming forward. I think Lina has a right to her opinion as do you.

    I think the church should start to take notice of the disatisfied people who are not putting their hard earned wages in the asketh basket, the church is becoming less and less attractive. Many in the church need significant counselling I suspect and all because of the rapacious priest who have brought this down on the corporate church. My Christ is much like the teachings in corintians and not like what we hear of the corporate line spouting from the defenders of the church, be honest, own your stuff and help rather than push everyone away, a very xenophobic post, sorry my opinion. It’s about the truth, helping victims and making criminals accountable, are you part of the solution or part of the problem.

  23. Lina says:

    Faith and hope said in quotations in post#21:

    “Lina, I think you need some help. Why don’t you go for some counseling. You have been very negative to everyone who speaks something good about the Catholic church.”

    I did give some thoughts about that advice you gave me. I believe responding to you right now (in this situation) is good therapy for me & it is way cheaper.

    “If there is a church in the world which is good,that is the catholic church. 99.9% priests of the Catholic church are good priests. You may have different opinion. I do not care about what you think about my opinions and views.”

    I’m sure you believe what you wrote here are facts in your own mind.
    This 00.1% priests are only bad? Common on, you must be joking?
    I can easily see you do not care about my opinions & views. That is your right. I also think I stuck a nerve with you because your post is 99.9% negative at least my previous post to you had some positives in it to you. Example: thanking you for prayers.

    “Your words or opinions and views is similar to a barking dog which is tied to a Pole which can no way attack any one because it is tied to a pole.”

    Now, now…is that anyway a Christian like yourself should talk? I thought I wrote a balance post#20 to you. I can take constructive criticism but destructive criticism I just delete it, in other words I do not let it bother me.

    “Do you think the church is bothered about your comments?I do not think so.”

    I will not let fear dictate what I am suppose to say or do.

    “You may be angry at the church, but there are billions who are not. They are not angry at the church, but angry at individuals who committed crimes against children.”

    You can fool yourself & other folks with the same mindset of that cozy blanket statement of yours but you are not fooling me.

    “I wonder sometimes, what is the purpose of some of you write on this page , whether it is just to express your anger and frustration , or is to help and support the victims of abuse??”

    I cannot speak for everybody else here, but I’m grateful to Sylvia for this site. And yes…sometimes I am frustrated & sometimes I am angry. It goes with the territory of being human.

    “Any way I wish you, Lina, good luck with your effort.”

    I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you are sincere about my effort to seek the truth. Helping victims and making criminals accountable, thank you! I am a sinner save by the grace of God.

    “Why don’t you make a tour to the catholic churches on sunday for Masses and ask the people about their priests and their faith. You may not find anyone who are against it. Ofcourse go to the streets and meet the people who do not go to church, you will have many supporters and they will agree to your opinions”.

    Why should I take a tour of the area churches when I already do go to a Catholic Church.
    Many people in church share, agree with my opinions & views. Many are not happy with the way the church is dealing with all those cover-ups!
    As for going to people in the streets…I will leave that job for experienced reporters & journalists. Me…I would only get tongued tied & make a silly fool of myself. I do know my limitations.

    “The person who run this web page, Sylvia, certainlly is an intelligent woman…”

    I totally agree with you!

    “…and others who write, most of them some times write back and forth, pating each others back like mad people. You also have been doing this several times.”

    Suggesting a limit of 4 posting a day here should solve your pet peeve problem about me. Furthermore…I resent you calling other posters here mad just because they do not fit your idea of perfection.

    “That is why I wrote in the begining you need some counseling or any other help you can receive.”

    ‘Faith and hope’…you should really take some of your own advice here. Take good care of yourself.

  24. Faith and hope says:

    Post #22
    Michael,
    you do not need to say “sorry” after you wrote your opinion about my comment. It does not make any sense. Because I am sure you believe in what you wrote.
    I do not change my opinions because someone else told . i am not offended by your or Lina’s opinions. My own studies (four Masters degrees including one in psychology , Bachelor of Education, two years of family counseling studies ) and working as a high school principal for many years , I believe I have some knowledge , intelligence and wisdom to know what is going on in the church, in the world , in the society and on this web page.
    Church has come a long way in dealing with the abuse cases which happend many many years back, which one reason or other were not brought forward at that time by the vicitims or the church. The church had acknoledged it’s mistakes and is trying to do their best to eradicate it. The law of the nation is there to handle the cases and make them accountable. Helping the victims and giving support to them I understand. This is what you guys should focus on.
    I just checked the web page of Fr.Tim.(Lina’s Post) He is not collecting donations for his parish, it’s for his mission (web page and it’s activites, blogs which is good and gives good information).
    I have a right to my own opinions, so do you have.
    I spoke of “counseling” in my previous writings, it may give peace of mind and comfort to some of you who are bothered by the short comings of the catholic church. But remember vast majority of people are happy in their faith and in their church. Because of materialism got in to north America, it has affected all christian denominations and and church attendace has reduced. It is not because of a few accused priests who are no longer in ministry or dead and gone years back . Catholic church is better in this regard. Any way I wish you all well in your efforts. You all may be retired from your works so have plenty of time, which I do not. I hope you find happiness in what you do or write. Good Bye and God Bless you all.

  25. Reality Checker says:

    Faith and Hope…..the problem with Catholic Church is people like YOU!!!

    Just curious – with all the education and so called experience you brag about – did you ever learn to come down to earth a bit???

  26. Michael says:

    Dear Faith and Hope,
    I agree to your statements. Do not worry about what “reality checker says” .He /she has nothing else to do and seems to be a person with issues. he had attacked me several times. Some of his friends also are the same. You are right on with the truth.
    Some of them may be church goers!!! I do not know why do they go at all?? what is the purpose? May be they have no friends and no place to go to gossip.
    I think people like “reality checker’ has no basic education at all. People like “Faith and Truth” should not be bothered by a few ignorent and uneducated people’s comments!Many of these people need help .

  27. Michel B. says:

    Property Lines

    A helpful tool in our recovery, especially in the behavior we call detachment, is learning to identify who owns what. Then we let each person own and possess his or her rightful property.

    If another person has an addiction, a problem, a feeling, or a self-defeating behavior, that is their property, not ours. If someone is a martyr, immersed in negativity, controlling, or manipulative, that is their issue, not ours.

    If someone has acted and experienced a particular consequence, both the behavior and the consequence belong to that person.

    People’s lies, deceptions, tricks, manipulations, abusive behaviors, inappropriate behaviors, cheating behaviors, and tacky behaviors belong to them, too. Not us.

    People’s hopes and dreams are their property. Their guilt belongs to them too. Their happiness or misery is also theirs. So are their beliefs and messages.

    If some people don’t like themselves, that is their choice. Their choices are their property, not ours. What people choose to say and do is their business.

    What is our property? Our property includes our behaviors, problems, feelings, happiness, misery, choices, and messages; our ability to love, care, and nurture; our thoughts, our denial, our hopes and dreams for ourselves. Whether we allow ourselves to be controlled, manipulated, deceived, or mistreated is our business.

    In recovery, we learn an appropriate sense of ownership. If something isn’t ours, we don’t take it. If we take it, we learn to give it back. Let other people have their property, and learn to own and take good care of what’s ours.

    Today, I will work at developing a clear sense of what belongs to me, and what doesn’t. If it’s not mine, I won’t keep it. I will deal with myself, my issues, and my responsibilities.

  28. Lina says:

    Faith and hope said in quotations: In Post#24

    “I just checked the web page of Fr.Tim.(Lina’s Post) He is not collecting donations for his parish, it’s for his mission (web page and it’s activites, blogs which is good and gives good information).”

    You are correct ‘Faith and hope’ I made a mistake. I am truly sorry & I am glad you brought that to my attention. I made the mistake of assuming when I remembered that last year Fr. Tim Moyle did say to us his parish in Mattawa Ont. “St. Anne’s Parish” was having financial difficulty.

    Still I should not have jumped to conclusion that Donation icon was for that. I was wrong. I am sorry I hurt Fr. Tim in any way.

    As for the rest of your post we just need to agree to disagree.

  29. Reality Checker says:

    Geez – do I ever seem to touch on some people’s nerves!!!

    Michael – “he” is a she. If you’ve been following this site for a few years – you would know who I am – but I see you don’t and haven’t done that.

    No friends??? Not true – I have many.

    Do I have issues? Yes I do.

    #1 Issue – What is happening with Sylvia’s site!!!

    It’s no longer become pleasant to come here and read the information available!!!

    She’s been sabotauged regardless of the 4 postings a day.

  30. I’m unsure how I got dragged into this discussion, but when I put the ‘donate’ button I said that it was for both donations to me or to the parish. If you tried yourself, you should have discovered that you were able to make that decision clear.

    Now, please leave me in peace. I have no dog in this fight.

    Fr. Tim

  31. Larry Green says:

    Hi ” father Tim Moyle.”
    I have probably missed something as I so often do (it’s just me)but just in case I’ll ask,- is there really a button designed to generate money by donation for You?

  32. Sylvia says:

    Tut tut “Faith and hope” (post 24). So much vanity and pride.

    For all your education your undertsanding of the clerical sexual absue scandal and its impact on victims, their families and parishioners in general is sorely lacking.

    You speak of “a few” accused priests who are no longer in ministry or “dead and gone years back.” Would that were true!

    I don’t know where in Canada you are but I certainly hope that as a High School principal with a string of degrees you have enough wisdom and prudence to check the background of every priest who darkens the door of your school. I don’t just mean police checks, I mean getting a written assurance from the bishop that the priest in question has no record of sexual offences and has never ever been charged, sued or accused.

  33. Larry: Check the post above your last one for the answer to your question.

  34. Larry Green says:

    Tim: Check the one below the same one for the question to your answer.

  35. Reality Checker says:

    THANKS for the chuckle Larry Green! 🙂

    You made my day!

  36. Larry Green says:

    faith n hope (post #24)
    All that time and money spent on so much education and you missed your calling after all.You could have been rich and famous as a stand up comedian. You are so funny.Keep the jokes comming, laughing is good for the soul.I like the part especially when you said you believe you are intelligent and wise.And the punch line is hillarious, ” God bless you all.”
    It must be very difficult for you to keep from laughing at yourself.You are to funny.Please wait for a little while before you come up with another routine- my side is so soar yet from laughing at you.
    I have a question.Be honest if you can. Is your real name Homer Simpson ?

  37. Faith and Hope says:

    Sylvia,
    In your post(#24), your statement “every priest who darkens the door of your school” is not a good statment. Priests, I know, brightens the doors of our school, the hearts of our children and the hearts of our staff, when they walk in to our school. I do not deny the fact that there were cases of abuses mostly in churches and that happend many many years ago. The church’s, society’s views and handling of the situations were entirely different. Those days teachers used to punish children, now it is considered as abuse. The church, society, the the parents and even in some cases, the victims are also resposible, together with the accused.Our Diocese is the largest diocese in Canada with over 600 priests currently (Toronto) . Please check how many are being accused in the past thirty or fourty years, and how many are in the past 10 or 15 years?!!! Check the percentage. As far as I know currently all the priests and candidates go through background check up and screening like the teachers and other staff of the school.In spite of that there are cases of abuses in schools by teachers!. So it is not that easy to determine fully what a person really is.
    It is aplicable to the parents who walks through the doors of the school who helps the children in various programs. I I start thinking and suspecting ,like you, about every one walks in to the school doors, I might go crazy. Certain amount of trust in the staff, the priest is needed to function. I do not know how many recent casesof abuse you have of clergy ? ie which happend in the last five or ten years (from year 2000)? May be none or a few around the world.

  38. Reality Checker says:

    WHAT KIND OF EDUCATION DO YOU HAVE???

    “The church, society, the the parents and even in some cases, the victims are also resposible, together with the accused

    The only time I have ever heard that PARENTS were being accused of being responsible in a child sexual abuse case was in the James Kneale case!!! Kneale countersued the victim’s parents for allowing and not protecting their son (John Caruso)in his interactions with the priest. Are you friends and/or an aquaintance of Jim Kneale?

    As a High School principal – get your head out of the sand!!!

    OMG – there goes my day!

  39. Michael says:

    My happiest day was today afer many days!! post # 29 “Reality checker” says, “It’s no longer become pleasant to come here and read the information available”.
    Till the past couple of months some of you were in your comfortable zone, patting each others back and praising each other and throwing mud at the church, some cases with out knowing the facts. Months back I think someone here asked you or someone else, “is it your day job”??
    In the Hindu sacred Scripture there are versers about why God took the form of man several times and came to earth.
    “yada-yada hi dharmasya galnir bhavati bharata
    abhyutthanam adharmasya tada ‘tmanam srjanmy aham paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam
    dharmasamsthapanarthaya sambhavami yuge-yuge”
    THE TRANSLATION IN ENGLISH IS: “whenever there is a decline of righteousness and a rise of unrighteousness, then I manifest Myself (GOD)for the protection of the virtuous, for the destruction of the wicked and for establishing righteouseness, I come into being from age to age”.
    That is happening on this site. Catholic belive that God works through human beings. God is working through people like ‘faith and hope’, Fr.Tim, and several others who have been QUESTIONING YOUR CREDIBILITIES!. So God has come to you guys through these wonderful, intelligent and well educated people. I can’t but laugh!! You guys have even tried to make Fr.Tim a SCAPEGOAT. Good try. I am sure he knows where he stands.

  40. Michael says:

    faith and hope, who ever you are, do not bother that woman called reality checker , i doubt she is a mental case. I hope someone whould help her.

  41. prima facie says:

    IS ACADEMIA THE PROBLEM?:
    How can each of us help? Are we preoccupied with “ourselves”?

    In my lifetime, I have had the pleasure of interacting with many people from very different “walks of life”.
    I believe I have been blessed with these experiences. I still experience these wonderful interactions to this very day, every day. The people I encounter and have encountered, come from very different socio-economic backgrounds, geographical locations, life experiences, learning sources, traditional and non traditional educations, etc. Furthermore, some of the people I have encountered possess various professional and/or so-called para-professional credentialing, some have never attended schools, some have not finished high school and some have never attended post-secondary institutions or possess post secondary, traditional credentialing.

    Some of the people I have met and meet have been/are, very privileged and influential, occupying prominent positions in society. Some of the people I meet or have met, are not so privileged…and many are simply forgotten.

    I come from the perspective that all of the people I have interacted with in my life, have had their very own, individual experiences, evolving from their own interpretations, feelings, reactions, etc., to everyday life. I have been able to learn much from them all. In some cases, it has taken years for me to truly appreciate and understand or accept, what I originally learned from these people and/systems.

    In addition; I have learned that today or any day, I could search and find theories, empirical research, evidence, and, even expert testimony, to support or “validate” any ideology or “assertion”, which I would like to convince people into believing “as being true”. Then tomorrow, I could search and find theories, empirical research, evidence, and, even expert testimony, to the contrary and equally as convincing.
    I have learned that when various professionals, with various academic credentialing, confront the very same “social problem”, they each, very often, come to very different “assumptions”, “causes-effects”-etc. and consequently different “conclusions”, etc. Unfortunately, the aforementioned results in millions of dollars being inappropriately “handled”-displaced and consequently, the wasting of dollars and valuable time, while professions squabble for control and self-preservation. And therewith, all too often, the children suffer….all too often people who are unable or for whatever reason unwilling, to help themselves,…..suffer.
    Regarding statistics; well, I see statistics as “realistically”, unreliable and manipulated, although, for various reasons, professionals must rely on them, in attempting to validate a particular theory, someone or some “system” wants to promote; everyone strongly believes that they are correct and have the “absolute” answers to the social problem or whatever.
    In conclusion: Is academia the problem or part of the problem? How can we all help or are we preoccupied with self-preservation and the belief that, “only I” know all?

  42. Reality Checker says:

    No….TROLLS are the problem

    ” a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.”

  43. Larry Green says:

    I just re-read the comments posted by Faith and Hope and I have just realized that she has quite cleverly deceived everyone here. I am quite certain that Faith and Hope is a she and she is in about grade 11 , maybe 12 at the most.
    Nice try, but you really should not be afraid to voice your opinion and your views from the person you are . It’s okay to disguise your name but you would contribute more and you would learn more if you come as you are.The fact that you fooled everyone here is not a good lesson for you at all.Practice being you.

  44. prima facie says:

    Isn’t it great anyone, of any age, gender, race, religion, ethnicity, etc., can participate on this website. “How important is it?” I appreciate the messages,….positive, critical, judgemental, supportive, hurtful or otherwise. ….for me, sometimes it’s like looking into a mirror….where I was then and where I am today. Sometimes it is very helpful…I can learn about my strengths and shortcomings. Sometimes I think, “really, how important is it?”…did I go out of my way to hurt someone today?
    We all come to this website for a specific reason…..?

  45. Michel B. says:

    THE BUZZARD:

    If you put a buzzard in a pen that is 6 feet by 8 feet and
    is entirely open at the top, the bird, in spite of its
    ability to fly, will be an absolute prisoner. The reason is
    that a buzzard always begins a flight from the ground with a
    run of 10 to 12 feet. Without space to run, as is its habit,
    it will not even attempt to fly, but will remain a prisoner
    for life in a small jail with no top.

    THE BAT:

    The ordinary bat that flies around at night, a remarkable nimble creature in the air, cannot take off from a level place. If it is placed on the floor or flat ground, all it can do is shuffle about helplessly and, no doubt, painfully, until it reaches some slight elevation from which it can throw itself into the air. Then, at once, it takes off like a flash.

    THE BUMBLEBEE:

    A bumblebee, if dropped into an open tumbler, will be there until it dies, unless it is taken out. It never sees the means of escape at the top, but persists in trying to find some way out through the sides near the bottom.. It will seek a way where none exists, until it completely destroys itself.

    PEOPLE:

    In many ways, we are like the buzzard, the bat, and the bumblebee. We struggle about with all our problems and frustrations, never realizing that all we have to do is look up! That’s the answer, the escape route and the solution to any problem! Just look up.

    Sorrow looks back, Worry looks around, But faith looks up!

    Live simply, love generously, care deeply, speak kindly and trust in our Creator who loves us.

  46. Sylvia says:

    This thread is now closed

  47. Sylvia says:

    An addemdum to the above.

    I believe all avenues of comment on this topic have been exhausted. I think the last two posts are appropriate notes on which to close.

    I have however tried to close the comments without success. The software insists on closing down ALL the comments, inlcuding those already posted. I don’t want to do that. I believe we can learn from those who believe there are no problems in the Church, and I believe we can learn when to lay differences of opinion to rest. I am certainly learning 🙂

    My problem right now is that I have issues with my software which will not allow me to close this thread as I usually would. This is related to my need to upgrade my blog software and change the blog “theme” which already is causing problems after a previous blog upgrade. I have been postponing the inevitable because, to be honest, I dread the potential headaches of the upgrades and reformatting the site to suit a new theme. As I have often said, I am no computer geek. Because of the size of the site and changes which must be made I will need to hire an “expert” in wordpress to make the transition for me. I have been looking about for the past weeks for someone reliable. I will now obviously have to finalize that step and take the plunge .

    Until that is accomplished I ask that you respect my request to close this thread.

    Thank you

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