“George Pell approved use of a court ‘tactic’ against abuse claims” & related articles (AUDIO file)

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The Australian

March 26, 2014 1:37PM


Cardinal George Pell’s evidence on John Ellis abuse case raises eyebrows in public gallery

STUNNED disbelief. That is how the evidence of Cardinal George Pell is being greeted in the hearing room in Sydney where he is in the stand for the second day explaining how he approached the case of abuse victim John Ellis.

The cardinal answers “yes” or “that is correct” to a string of questions by counsel assisting the commission Gail Furness SC about his instructions to solicitors who disputed in court that Ellis had ever been abused.

The senior churchman’s monosyllabic replies have the quality of a religious chant.

His argument that when the church went to court they were not denying that John Ellis had been abused but testing “the proof of the fact” had the quality of a medieval theological discourse on how many angels could dance on the head of a needle.

Cardinal George Pell appeared confused at times as he took the stand for a second day at

Cardinal George Pell appeared confused at times as he took the stand for a second day at the Royal Commission. Source: News Corp Australia

Well before the court case, the church had accepted that John Ellis had been abused from the age of 13 and had been severely emotionally and mentally wounded by that abuse.

When Pell said he was making a distinction between disputing and denying the claim of abuse one woman muttered sotto voce: “He will do well in Rome”.

Others turned to one another and raised eyebrows as high as they could be raised. Two church associates sitting rows apart turned and gave each other significant looks.

And so it went — the cardinal said several times that he had always told all involved: “We could not deny what had taken place.”

When asked by commission counsel if the effect on Mr Ellis of disputing the abuse and denying were the same he answered: “We were dealing with a senior brilliant lawyer and other lawyers” and added he thought Ellis would have understood the distinction at the time.

“I continued to be uneasy,” he confessed sounding a tad bemused by such an unfamiliar feeling.

He said he realises now that the dispute/denial was ill-advised and several times seemed tired and slightly confused over what exactly he was looking at.

But Cardinal Pell was certain again when it was put to him that he had instructed lawyers to dispute that John Ellis was abused. “Well I would prefer the term ‘putting it to the proof’ but I did (instruct).”


Cardinal George Pell regrets legal strategy used against victim John Ellis

The Sydney Morning Herald

March 27, 2014

Damien Murphy

Cardinal George Pell.

Cardinal George Pell. Photo: Sahlan Hayes

”Do you understand now from your learning in the area of the effect and impact of child sexual abuse that the impact it had on John Ellis to have the very church he had gone back to dispute that he had ever been abused?”

The rain outside had streaked the windows with tears when Gail Furness, senior counsel assisting the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse suddenly turned the Catholic Church into a perpetrator.

In the front row of the public gallery, John Ellis, a man long ago abused by his parish priest, raised his left hand to his face like a shield as Cardinal George Pell began.

Cardinal Pell, as Catholic Archbishop of Sydney, had sanctioned a legal strategy that refused to recognise Mr Ellis had been abused, offered him derisory financial compensation and refused his offers of a settlement in the belief it would cause a rush of litigants demanding compensation payouts and subjected him to a long, demeaning legal case that left him bankrupt.

Cardinal Pell: ”I regret that.”

Ms Furness: ”Only regret, Cardinal?”

Cardinal Pell: ”What else could I say? It was wrong that it [cross-examination of Mr Ellis] went to such an extent. I was told it was a legally proper tactic, strategy.”

Cardinal Pell not only blamed his lawyers at the royal commission but dropped his trusted private secretary in it, saying Dr Michael Casey was ”muddled”.

The drama of his first appearance on Monday was largely absent. The victims of child abuse and their supporters attended, but seemed to have left their anger at home and listened as the Cardinal gave evidence for nearly five hours, occasionally jeering at his answers.

Their louder outbursts came as Cardinal Pell struggled to explain he had come to personally believe that Mr Ellis had been sexually abused by Father Aidan Duggan but documents showed he directed the Melbourne law firm Corrs Chambers Westgarth to refuse to acknowledge the truth of his claims while the matter was before the Court of Appeal.

He also had a few sharp comments about the legal fraternity, blaming the welter of litigation about predatory priests in the US on the numbers of American lawyers and even seemed to lament they did not labour under the constraints faced by a Cardinal.


Cardinal Pell regrets cross-examination of abuse victim John Ellis

ABC Online

Emily Bourke reported this story on Wednesday, March 26, 2014 12:10:00

Audio file – click to start:

ELEANOR HALL: Australia’s most senior Catholic cleric has told the child abuse Royal Commission that, from what he called a “Christian point of view”, the Church did not deal fairly with former altar boy and abuse victim, John Ellis.

Cardinal George Pell conceded that it was a mistake to not enter into mediation at the start of the legal process which was so damaging for Mr Ellis, but he maintained he was not responsible for making that decision.

The World Today’s Emily Bourke has been monitoring the hearing and joins us now.

Emily, it’s the second day in the witness box for Cardinal Pell. What was the focus of the counsel assisting’s questioning today?

EMILY BOURKE: Well the inquiry is really drilling down into just how closely involved Cardinal Pell was in directing the course of the litigation when Mr Ellis tried to sue the Church.

While Cardinal Pell endorsed the overall strategy, he says he wasn’t involved in each and every legal manoeuvre.

Now Cardinal Pell said that he instructed his legal team to resist the case and, based on that, the lawyers then vigorously defended and defeated the Ellis matter, but that came at enormous cost to both to the Church and to Mr Ellis.

The approach included Mr Ellis being cross examined for days over the fact of his abuse.

Cardinal Pell has told the inquiry from a Christian point of view, he doesn’t think they dealt fairly with Mr Ellis, but he said that the legal team acted honestly.

He was questioned by senior counsel assisting Gail Furness about the decision to challenge the truth of Mr Ellis’s story of abuse.

GEORGE PELL: I was told that what was being proposed was not only proper legally but not unusual.

GAIL FURNESS: What about morally, Cardinal?

GEORGE PELL: Well, I have explained my moral doubts about it, but the lawyers… anyhow I did not believe they would suggest anything to me that was improper.

GAIL FURNESS: Do you understand now the impact it had on John Ellis to have the very Church that he’d gone back to in Towards Healing dispute that he had ever been abused?


GAIL FURNESS: And what do you have to say about that?

GEORGE PELL: I regret that.

GAIL FURNESS: Only regret it, Cardinal?

GEORGE PELL: What else could I say? It was wrong that it went to such an extent.

ELEANOR HALL: And that’s Cardinal George Pell under questioning by Gail Furness.

Emily, Cardinal Pell disputed the accounts by others within the Church that he had day-to-day running of the case, so has his testimony today helped to shed any light on who and what was driving the strategy of the Church’s legal team?

EMILY BOURKE: Yes, quite.

Cardinal Pell says he was puzzled by why Mr Ellis and his legal team were trying to pursue the trustees of the Church, because in law, the trustees were not and are not responsible for the actions or indeed the misconduct of priests and they can’t be held liable; they can’t be sued.

Cardinal Pell went further to say he didn’t think he was dealing with entirely reasonable people in the Ellis team, and that’s despite evidence showing that Mr Ellis had firstly tried to settle his case for $100,000 and then put forward an offer of compromise for $750,000.

But the Church put forward no counter offer, and while Cardinal Pell has admitted on reflection that it was a mistake not to mediate, he also said that he thought Mr Ellis was seeking millions of dollars.

Now, it would seem from the testimony today that the legal advice to Cardinal Pell, which he accepted, was that there was no need to give any ground, no need to even try to enter into negotiation with Mr Ellis because the Church was on firm legal ground. They had a strong case and would likely win.

In essence, there was no need, no appetite to try to find some compromise with Mr Ellis.

GEORGE PELL: I was continually mystified, perhaps even exasperated, by the fact that three senior lawyers would continue to attack the role of the trustees. Our people were saying that they had no hope whatsoever of winning that and therefore, I suppose, I viewed every approach they made, to some extent, through this prism that, well, we’re not really dealing with entirely reasonable people.


GAIL FURNESS: You use the word “attack”, Cardinal. Weren’t they only exercising the ordinary legal right of everyone in the community to take legal action?

GEORGE PELL: I wasn’t disputing their right to do so; I had in my own mind that it was inexplicable and unwise. I couldn’t understand why senior lawyers were persisting in this course.

ELEANOR HALL: That’s Cardinal George Pell.

Emily, yesterday’s hearing exposed for the first time the extraordinary wealth of the Sydney Archdiocese and showed how that balanced against the financial compensation paid to victims.

Was Cardinal Pell asked about that?

EMILY BOURKE: Yes, well yesterday’s evidence uncovered indeed the sizeable assets and the multimillion dollars funds held by the Church just in Sydney, as well as the fact that it enjoys tax-free status, and that its assets are valued at cost rather than market rate, so the wealth may in fact be greater than the books show.

The business manager of the Sydney Archdiocese Danny Casey told the inquiry yesterday that it might be fitting that the Church review the compensation payments that have been made to victims so far.

Justice Peter McClellan put the same question to Cardinal Pell and here was his response.

PETER MCCLELLAN: He agreed with the suggestion that the moral thing to do was to go back and revisit those amounts.


PETER MCCLELLAN: Do you share that view for everyone who’s been processed through Towards Healing previously?

GEORGE PELL: Perhaps not for everyone. We certainly did in this case and certainly I have made a decision that, according to the prevailing norms, we were not to be ungenerous.

PETER MCCLELLAN: Mr Casey was talking about the past, what you’d done previous to 2007, and expressed the view that the Archdiocese should go back and look again at what had been paid previously to make sure that it met the moral obligation of the Church.

Do you share that view?

GEORGE PELL: Yes, I do now. We didn’t at that time systemically revisit every case.

ELEANOR HALL: That’s Cardinal George Pell, under questioning from Justice Peter McClellan.

Emily Bourke our reporter at that Royal Commission.


Cardinal George Pell tells Royal Commission he never told church lawyers to deny sex abuse of altar boy John Ellis


Royal Commission

George Pell appearing at the Royal Commission today. Source: News Corp Australia

WHAT is the difference between disputing and denying? Quite a lot, according to Cardinal George Pell today.

He said that he had never told the church’s lawyers to deny that former altar boy John Ellis has been sexually abused by a priest when he sued the Sydney Archdiocese. He only accepted legal advice that they make Mr Elllis “prove” it.

Cardinal Pell said he had already accepted a Catholic Church report that Mr Ellis was telling the truth about his abuse as a teenager but Mr Ellis was questioned for four days about it during the case in 2004.

The cardinal said it had been a legal strategy suggested to him by the church’s lawyers, Corrs Chambers Westgarth, to “put Mr Ellis to the proof” of his claims of sexual abuse.

Counsel assisting the royal commission, Gail Furness SC, said: “The effect of disputing the abuse occurred was precisely the same on Mr Ellis, was it not, as denying the abuse occurred?”

Cardinal Pell: “I would not draw that conclusion.”

Ms Furness; “You are making a distinction, are you, between disputing that something occurred and denying it?”

Cardinal Pell: “Yes, very definitely.”

Ms Furness asked him what he thought the effect on Mr Ellis would be when the church he had believed in all his life and had gone to for help when he confronted the abuse, denied it and cross-examined him about it in court.

Cardinal Pell: “I regret that.”

Ms Furness: “Only regret it cardinal?”

Cardinal Pell: “What else could I say? It was wrong that it went to such an extent. I was told it was a legally proper tactic, strategy.”

Cardinal Pell is in his second day in the witness box. If his evidence does not end today, he will be recalled tomorrow afternoon.

He is expected to then head for Rome and the Vatican where he has been appointed head of their finances.

The hearing continues in Sydney

8 Responses to “George Pell approved use of a court ‘tactic’ against abuse claims” & related articles (AUDIO file)

  1. Sylvia says:

    Scroll down to ABC article “Cardinal Pell regrets cross-examination of abuse victim John Ellis” – there is an audio file with some good clips from the hearing

  2. Miecul says:

    Here another video. It has Cardinal Pell heart felt sorrow and told us that the church has changed its ways. He was also a student of St. Patrick’s. where all this abuse happened. The video is called Unholy Silence. This is a very disturbing video.

    I sometimes wonder why I bother looking for more stories. Even after my many counselling sessions, I still feel sick inside, and it’s not going away. I can’t put my head back in the sand, like it never happened. I feel like John at times of one crying in the desert for them to make straight their paths.

    I even question my Lords existence at times, wondering if they knew Jesus would have a problem with any person touching a child let alone clergy and what he would do to them. None of them seem worried. Either this whole church thing setup, was a way to control people, and make a pile of cash along the way. I also know that he’s a forgiving God, but will he, should he? I think yes he should at times and at others, I’d like to castrate the lot of them, and use “The Pope’s Pear” and see if they’d like something shoved into them something that doesn’t belong.

    Cardinal Pell should be in Rome by now. After you watch the video, I’m wondering why he was sent to Rome and will we ever hear of him again. I think so, and he might be their next speaker. All the words that come out of his mouth is nothing but lies. So you see, he’ll fit right in at the Vatican. He’ll likely be their speaker, the silver tonged devil. Hidin’ intentions of evil, under the smile of a saint. With all there lie’s, are we ever going to recognise the truth if or when they speak it?

    the silver tongued devil.


  3. JG says:

    I hear you loud and clear! I read your post several hours ago and I have been fuming ever since! Even had a “formal” visitor I had to deal with(government!) and my wife told me after I was “scary”! It wasn’t that “official’s” fault, just the echoes of the re-awakened frustration in the face of this church’s denials and cover-up.
    The video you proposed goes back 20 years BEFORE I knew anything of this abuse of children.They were already covering up, blaming the victims, and even attacking them while I and probably so many others were basking in our ignorance! A priest wouldn’t do such a thing! I had confrontations with family members who were by then already calling the “church” EVIL…I defended this church, “tooth and nail” in the face of these newly converts to some “Evangelical” sect…What an idiot!
    I have lost “my” church and no where near even considering following any new type of “leader” in any denomination.Please, stay away!… I feel like I have been abandoned at sea by Pell, the Vatican, JPII, Ben, and all the others with that fake smile and that pervert inclination. I am disgusted and Hell would be too good for these vile bastards.
    Lies, lies, lies to protect the abusers and “the church”…

    • PJ says:

      Loke I always say about those collars and that church…they defend their pervert collars, deny justice to the victims and then denigrate the victims. Damn them all from Franky on down. Yeah there’s some good collars but they are just as bad for remaining silent.

  4. Mike Fitzgerald says:

    Thank you Miecul. As horrible as it is, the truth must come out! The church has blood on it’s hands, among other things. Mike.

  5. Leona says:

    I’m with you in that “I sometimes wonder why I bother looking for more stories.”
    I have to admit that I can’t even bring myself to watch the video. I know it’s just going to be same old, same old and another big emotional trigger, and yet I won’t put my head in the sand either. What I know for sure is that there are still victims/survivors out there struggling and often feeling very alone.

    J.G. your words really hit home, when you speak of your feelings 20 years ago, those were the feelings and emotions that I had to deal with as a survivor who spoke out. I’d hate to think that my actions were in vain, and that’s what pains me the most, that in those 24 years since I first came forward, little has changed. I believe in Canada in particularly it may be swept even further under the rug.

    I’d love it if we could collectively channel our emotions into something that could really make a difference in supporting victims and keeping children safe. I’m travelling East this summer for sure if anyone was up for a get together.

    • Miecul says:

      Until 2011 I had no idea what was going on out in the world, and with my church. I don’t think that half the churches congregation does either. Most of us are too tied up with our lives to really go searching for wrong doings of the church. Sure we hear of priest in our own diocese getting caught but not how many there are in other parts of the world. The church has done a fantastic job in covering up these stories, keeping it all local. Other than Sylvia who is keeping track. She can only handle the clergy in our own country. How many do we never hear about out in our world. I only found this site because of my own situation, and what a god send and refuge this site has been. I haven’t got out in the last several years but to pick up groceries, Dr. appointments, my therapist, or to pick up my daughters from school. I’m really hoping and praying I can get out a little more and do something different. It’s been a long and cold winter. We still have snow.I watched a movie 2 night ago called “The Way” with Martin Sheen. He’s an eye doctor and just received news that his son had died. His son was on a Pilgrimage to The Camino de Santiago or the Way of St. James, and died the first week. The Way of St. James is an 800km walk. If you haven’t seen the movie it’s not bad and worth a watch. I had a thought of doing something like this but I don’t think my body could do it. I have visions of trying something like this, it might even be good for my soul. But I don’t think I need to go that far to get me out of this rut I seem to be in.

      I’d love to meet up Leona if at all possible. Maybe we could meet with Sylvia and a few others. A get together. I think Sylvia would be interested.

      Everyone have a great Easter with your family and friends. God Bless.

  6. JG says:

    If you are coming “this far ” East you will have to come in. My door is always open.
    When I mention “defending” the church in the above post I knew nothing of these abuses or any other abuses…I was naive, busy with my family life, the kids…Up to that point and I guess until Bastarache chose to lie to me in 2010 I would not have seen all the deception and the effect on society in general, my Father’s family in particular… I was particularly moved by the young girl at the end of the video Miecul suggested. I could have used those exact words, how could our lives have been different??
    Even with all the pain and frustration this has brought, I don’t think I would want it any other way. Every little “objection”, every time someone speaks up I think gets us closer to the goal of protecting children. In the past 4 years, I hear and see a different attitude, more awareness…
    It is a very taxing preoccupation but I cannot envision a time when I will be able to be silent and forget about the possibility that there is “one child” who needs an adult to speak-up, to scream on his behalf…
    It can never be again as it was…

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