Well, one thing’s for sure. You never know from one moment to the next what’s going to happen in that Weave Shed. Yesterday was no exception.
And all I can say is yesterday was a bonanza for the spin masters. Those who want to turn Perry Dunlop’s every move and word into something sinister and his every friend into the devil incarnate were without doubt rubbing their hands with glee, and Steve Parisien, a victim, must have felt he had climbed out the wrong side of the bed.
Here’s what happened.
Vicki Roy, Albert Roy’s wife finally took the stand at 2pm yesterday afternoon.
It was known that Vicki Roy would testify regarding a conversation she reputedly had had with Carson Chisholm at the Weave Shed last Wednesday. That aside she also seemed to have been called as a witness to corroborate Albert’s testimony or provide details regarding institutional response to Albert’s allegations from her perspective.
Commission counsel Pierre Dumais led Vicki through the latter first. I will touch on that only very briefly because, alas, so typically Cornwall, the story of the day has nothing to do with child molesters.
Vicki Roy’s perspective on institutional response to Albert’s allegations
(1) Vicki testified that OPP Constable Zebruck picked them (Albert & Vicki) up in an unmarked car asked Albert to direct him to and identify Nelson Barque’s home (Barque, a probation officer, was one of Albert’s molesters). According to Vicki after Albert had led Zebruck to and readily identified the house Zebruck began telling Albert how much this (sex abuse allegations) would affect Barques’ family and friends, and how Ken Seguin had committed suicide and this might cause Barque to commit suicide too, and after all “What was wrong with a little bit of oral sex?”
(2) Vicki wrote letters to then local MPP John Cleary, Mayor Sylvester, MP Bob Kilger (now mayor) and Premier Mike Harris because “I wanted them to do something … to help other victims and to look into what was going on in the community.”
Harris apparently responded that it wasn’t his place to get involved. Kilger said he thought it would best left in Cleary’s hand and in the courts even though the courts weren’t the greatest. Cleary ensured that her letter got to Harris. And Sylvester avoided her and his receptionist told her he didn’t have time for this.
Overall, according to Vicki, “none of them, but none of them would do anything.”
I can’t move on without mentioning the brief spell dedicated to role playing. Justice Glaude actually told Vicki to pretend that she was Zebruck and say what he said!!! She didn’t manage it too well, but she gave it a noble effort.
The bonanza
Part of what I am now about to relate may not translate well onto paper – tone and inflection often say as much or more than the words themselves. That was the case in parts of Vicki’s testimony yesterday. I can not give you the tone, but I’ll do my best to give you the “highlights” of her testimony regarding (1) Carson Chisholm, and (2) Steve Parisien.
(1) Carson Chisholm
It was known last week that Vicki had reported last week that Carson Chisholm said something to her. She relayed those comments to Albert. Albert apparently relayed them to the inquiry team. The inquiry team decided that what Carson Chisholm does and says is relevant to the inquiry mandate.
So, we have all known that when Vicki took the stand she would be asked to tell the world what Carson Chisholm said to her.
To help put this all into context, here, in Vicki’s own words as she testified yesterday (Monday 11 December 200), is how the conversation was triggered and what got this bonanza rolling:
he [Carson Chisholm] was outside and I was outside having a cigarette and I happened to notice him, and I went over to say “Hi” because I wanted to see how Perry Dunlop and his family were doing where they live.
And right away, you know, like he started in about Perry was having a hard time out there because they were still trying to put screws to him, kind of thing, and then he wanted me to convey a message to Albert….He said that he wanted Albert to say that it was Perry that helped him get the lawyer John Morris and that Albert sitting up here, he was like a lamb and all the lawyers were like a pack of wolves ready to eat him up…
That was it.
That in and of itself raises some questions:
(1) When Vicki says that Carson “wanted Albert to say…” is she implying that Carson asked her to lie? Or did she perhaps misspeak?
Vicki herself testified that, and I quote:
Albert and I had conversations about obtaining a lawyer and when we had met with Perry Dunlop, he said that he knew a good lawyer and that he would introduce Albert and myself to him
(2) Did Perry Dunlop help Albert find a lawyer or did he not?
(3) What does this have to do with the mandate?
(4) What am I missing?
(5) Is someone somewhere in that Weave Shed going to step up to the plate and clarify this confusing little mess?
That is not the end of it. Nor for that matter was it the beginning of the Carson Chisholm quiz.
In his examination in chief commission counsel Pierre Dumais ascertained that Vicki and Albert met Perry Dunlop for the first time when they were invited along by the Fifth Estate crew during an interview at the Dunlop home. Albert had apparently been keen to meet Perry. The TV crew were aware of that and told Albert and Vicki to come along to the Dunlop home during the shoot and they could meet Perry and Helen. That meeting aside the only other meeting Vicki apparently had with the Dunlops was during a meeting with lawyer John Morris at a Cornwall hotel.
We pick it up there.
Dumais has just asked if Vicki had any conversations with Perry Dunlop herself. She replies in the negative. He then asks if during “that period of time” she had any conversations with Carson Chisholm:
MR. DUMAIS: All right. What about a gentleman by the name of Carson Chisholm?
MS. ROY: Well, I’ve had a few conversations with Carson Chisholm.
MR. DUMAIS: During that period of time?
MS. ROY: Yes.
MR. DUMAIS: Okay. Well, I mean, tell us about those —
Now note Justice Glaude intervenes
GLAUDE: We want to know all of them, but go ahead.
MS. ROY: You don’t want to or you want?
GLAUDE: No, no, I just want to know about all of them.
So, Justice Glaude wants to know about ALL Vicki’s meetings with Carson Chisholm.
Vicki then gives an account of her meetings with Carson.
I must say that this is truly an instance where words devoid of tone fail to capture the testimony. I can best describe Vicki’s tone as either disparaging, or perhaps deprecating, or maybe spoken with disdain. It’s hard to pin point, but whichever or whatever there was a decided change in Vicki’s tone when she talked about Carson Chisholm and certainly a sense, perhaps erroneously conveyed, that she really doesn’t like the man.
Here then is how Vicki described her encouters with Carson:
MS. ROY: Anyway, so Carson Chisholm had come into my place of work and he basically, you know — like at a gas bar, I mean, you know, people are running in and out all the time and, you know, because I was the cashier looking after the store, I had to keep an eye on everything and Carson was in the store rambling on names and, you know, like trying to get Albert, you know, that he wanted to get a hold of Albert and he wanted Albert to jump on some kind of bandwagon with other victims and what not. And I told Carson, you know, “Like this is my place of work. I don’t care to hear it. I don’t want to know.”
And I said, “As far as Albert is concerned”, I said, “He’s going to do what he wants and what is right.” So I said, “You know, you don’t have to keep, you know, coming and calling and, you know, babbling on.”
And what’s this all about?
Why the disdain? Why the inference that Carson wanted Albert to do something wrong?
Disturbing indeed.
But, on we go.
Vicki testifies that Carson had called the Roy home on a couple of occasions. The she moves on to say that Carson had conversation with her “here.”
“Here” is obviously reference to the conversation which prompted this inquiry foray in to who Carson Chisholm speaks to. We all knew it was coming. We’ve known for a week.
But, look at this. Watch Justice Glaude leap in when Vicki testifies she had a conversation with Carson “here,” i.e., at the Weave Shed
MS. ROY: . . . you know, he [Carson Chisholm] had called the house a couple of times and then when we were here, he was outside and trying to have a conversation with me here.
GLAUDE: I’m sorry; “here”, you mean?
MS. ROY: Here.
GLAUDE: At the Inquiry?MS. ROY: Yes.
GLAUDE: You might want to canvass that, Mr. Dumais?
Are we truly to believe that Justice Glaude didn’t know about the Vicki/Carson conversation at the Weave Shed?
Can you believe it? Where has he been?
No matter. He wants Mr.Dumais to follow through on it?
Too too much.
Note that Vicki says Carson was outside “and trying to have a conversation with me.” The implication here is that Carson was imposing himself on her.
Minutes later however she describes the encouter (the first one copied at the top of the blog). I’ll copy the first para
he [Carson Chisholm] was outside and I was outside having a cigarette and I happened to notice him, and I went over to say “Hi” because I wanted to see how Perry Dunlop and his family were doing where they live.
Vicki approached Carson Chisholm!! But, she just said he was outside “and trying to have conversation with me.”
Is this a case of witness stand jitters? If not, what’s going on?
And, who’s going to clarify what demands clarification? Where are the lawyers?
Finally, an important exchange:
MR. DUMAIS: All right.
Any other dealings throughout the years with Mr. Chisholm, Vicki?
MS. ROY: Not that I can remember. I mean, I have known him prior to all of this, but —
MR. DUMAIS: So you knew him before the allegation came out?
MS. ROY: Yes.
MR. DUMAIS: All right.
She can’t remember any other dealings she had with Carson Chisholm? But, ….she knew him prior to this?
What does Vicki mean she knew him before this but can’t remember any other dealings with him?
And Mr. Dumais doesn’t press on? Just “All right”? That’s it?!
He doesn’t ask when did Vicki know Carson before? He doesn’t ask in what capacity she knew him before? He doesn’t ask what was the nature of their relationship before?
Surely someone in that Weave Shed senses there is something seriously amiss here! Surely someone realizes there are questions which must be asked?
Then, look at this. This is good for a laugh. John Callaghan (Cornwall Police Service)was set to pounce. He was keen to let the world know who the members of this so-called victims group were that Carson was presumably engineering:
MR. CALLAGHAN: And you referred to him as “Carson was rambling through all these names.” …
MS. ROY: Yes, well, he was always rambling.
MR. CALLAGHAN: And did he indicate that this group — was this a group that was going to do something? Like what was the group going to do? Was it going to start a lawsuit? Was it going to go the Mayor’s Office? Do you know what it was going to do?
MS. ROY: No, not exactly.
MR. CALLAGHAN: Do you remember any of the names Carson Chisholm gave you?
MS. ROY: No. The only one I remember was from a church.
MR. CALLAGHAN: Can you give us the name you say from a church?
MS. ROY: I believe his name was Father MacDonald.
🙂
Now on to the other debacle….
(2) Steve Parisien
Dumais has just asked if any other individuals went to Vicki to ask questions or give advice on how she should testify, and out comes this exchange…
MS. ROY: Nobody actually called me directly to talk to me about testimony or anything. They just wanted to know how Albert was doing. And there was a gentleman that had called the house the other evening. Well, it was pretty late. It was about twenty to twelve at night and he wanted to talk to Albert and I believe he is a victim going through whatever case or cases or whatever.
Anyways, he had called and he talked to Albert and it wasn’t a very good conversation. Albert got off the phone and he was rather upset about it that he had called him. But before he had talked to Albert, he had talked to me asking how Albert was doing, you know, and if Albert was going back here.
Do you want his name?
GLAUDE: M’hm.
MS. ROY: His name is Steve Parisien.
GLAUDE: M’hm.
MR. DUMAIS: You had a conversation with this gentleman as well?
MS. ROY: Yes.
MR. DUMAIS: Prior to this conversation with Albert last Wednesday?
MS. ROY: No, well he was outside and he just told me who he was, here, the last time we were here.
I can’t remember the date. Anyways, he told me who he was, that he was my girlfriend’s landlord and I didn’t know him from Adam to Eve.
Then he had called our house. Like after that, I didn’t have a conversation or anything with him, and then he had called the house. And then he started asking, you know, how Albert was doing and, you know, if he had woke us or anything and I said “No”. I said, “We were already up” and he said, well, he wanted to talk to Albert. So he spoke with Albert and Albert had got off the phone and he was just really upset.
MR. DUMAIS: Do you know what got him upset?
MS. ROY: Albert told me that he had told him that he had to have memory loss.
GLAUDE: I’m sorry?
MS. ROY: Steve Parisien when he was having the conversation with Albert had told Albert that when he got up here to testify that he basically had to have memory loss.
GLAUDE: About facts?
MS. ROY: Facts, Perry Dunlop, whatever. And Albert said, “I just tell it like it is”.
Heavy stuff. Serious accusations.
Doesn’t anyone in that Weave Shed see the signs that something is seriously amiss here?
Meanwhile …it’s a bonanza for the spin masters. More Perry Dunlop conspiracy theory stuff.
Vicki is back on the stand this morning – 9:30am I believe. She will be followed by Albert. IF they’re finished John MacDonald will take the stand. If he just about takes the stand, watch for preventive action from Father Charles MacDonald’s corner.
And, no word yet from Divisional Court on the diocesan (Bishop Durocher) application for a publication ban. Perhaps today?
And that truly is enough for now,
Sylvia
(cornwall@theinquiry.ca)