Even confession box won’t be off-limits
Thursday July 14 2011
By Shane Phelan, Michael Brennan and Ralph Riegel
PRIESTS will be jailed for up to five years if they fail to report paedophiles to gardai — even if they are told of the abuse in the confession box.
The penalty is contained in tough new laws being introduced after a Commission of Investigation report on the Diocese of Cloyne revealed yet another major cover-up of clerical sex abuse.
The damning Cloyne Report found the Co Cork diocese and its bishop ignored Irish church guidelines requiring all suspected molestation cases to be reported to gardai.
It also found the Vatican encouraged this concealment.
The Government, which ordered the two-year probe into cover-ups over the 13-year period 1996-2009 in Cloyne, also warned that its findings suggested there was a continuing danger to children’s welfare in parishes across the country.
The move to jail priests who fail to report abuse will cause huge concern among Catholic priests, who could face excommunication if they reveal anything they are told in the confessional.
The mandatory reporting requirement will also prove difficult for doctors and lawyers, who are usually obliged to keep conversations with patients and clients confidential.
Justice Minister Alan Shatter vowed to bring in the new laws last night after the report revealed how abuse allegations dating back to the 1960s were covered up at the highest levels in the diocese.
Compiled at a cost of €1.9m by a commission led by Judge Yvonne Murphy, the report:
?Pinpointed Bishop John Magee as the person primarily responsible for the diocese’s failure to report abuse claims to gardai and the Health Service Executive (HSE).
?Found Dr Magee continually breached agreed child protection guidelines over a period of 13 years between 1996 and 2009.
?Uncovered how nine out of 15 alleged abuse cases reported to the diocese between 1996 and 2005 were not referred to the gardai.
The report also revealed how Dr Magee himself came under investigation for alleged inappropriate behaviour with a former altar boy.
The Director of Public Prosecutions decided not to press charges following a garda inquiry.
There was also criticism of the gardai in three cases, including one where it appears the abuse by a priest of two young girls was never investigated despite details being given to a senior garda.
Dr Magee, who was last night believed to be in hiding in the US, issued a statement apologising for failing “all those who were abused by priests in the Diocese of Cloyne”.
Apology
An apology was also issued by his former second in command, Monsignor Denis O’Callaghan, who also failed to refer allegations to the gardai.
“I am sorry and I am saddened that my approach in many instances caused further hurt for people who needed the fullest support and assistance,” he said.
The alleged activities of 18 priests — none of whom were ever convicted — are detailed in the report.
In a number of cases, gardai only learned of allegations against the priests when it was too late to bring a successful prosecution.
Mr Shatter confirmed the new legislation, due to be published in the autumn, would apply to priests hearing confessions.
The new law is expected to face a backlash from the Catholic Church. As recently as 2007, a Catholic priest in the Philippines was excommunicated for revealing details made to him during confession.
There was no immediate response from the church hierarchy to the new laws proposed by Mr Shatter.
The head of the Catholic Church in Ireland, Cardinal Sean Brady, said the report represented “another dark day in the history of the response of church leaders to the cry of children abused by church personnel”.
- Shane Phelan, Michael Brennan and Ralph Riegel
Wow! I have ot think ths one through. I am 100% behind the move to jail those who fail to report allegations of child sex abuse to police. I am 100% behind jailing clergy who fail to report allegations to police.
I am however also 100% in support of the Seal of Confession. And, I am opposed to priests giving absolution to those who confess to acts of child sex abuse acts in the confessional. I believe that unless the penetant makes amends by turning himself in to police absolution should be witheld.
BUT, what happens when the penitent refuses to comply? If the priest-confessor reports to police he, the priest, incurs excommunication; if he fails to report he risks five years in jail.
Or, what happens when, for example, a young lad who has been sexually abused recounts the abuse and identifies his priest-molester during confession? And what happpens when he, the victim, insists that no one be told? In that instance, unless the priest-confessor can encourage the boy to relate the details outside the confessional, the priest is hamstrung. Here again, if he reports to police he faces excommunication; if he fails to report he risks five years in jail.
I need to think this through.
The sad thing here is that those in the Church who for years on end have lied and deceived and covered-up have brought this on.
I would guesstimate that the large majority of clergy first hear allegations of clerical sexual abuse against a particular priest outside the confessional. Yes, but all means put those who fail to report such allegations to police in jail.
As for what happens in confession, as I said, I need to think that through. The Seal of Confession is and must remain sacrosanct. How then to maintain the seal and comply with the law of the land? I just don’t know. I need to think….
Sylvia; the seal of confession is a dilemma for many of us to wrap our minds around especially when involving a crime; as we ponder; we can look to Paul Bernardo’s lawyer who had possession of the tapes of his sex crimes with the French and Mahaffy murders; using client-lawyer confidentiality he did not come forward; the result was “the deal with the devil” Carla Homolka; a complete travesty…. so….. in my opinion….the laws regarding ex-communication need an overhaul….. the Church needs a Vatican 3 ……. but who’s holding their breaths….thanks for your on-going works and efforts; Sylvia; am continually learning from the articles and posts; also spreading word of your site; but; in the Pembroke Diocese many are so steeped in tradition and prefer to keep their blinders on….
When you go to a therapist, psychologist, or psychiatrist, you are told before beginning your therapy, that they would have to break confidentiality in cases of child abuse where they thought a child would be I danger because that is the law. It seems to me, that if formally stated on the confessional, that such an action as that being tabled in Ireland, would be a step in holding clergy responsible for the protection of children!
Proud Survivor, I am still praying for you that one day you will find a way to free yourself from the prison Jack McCann put you in. Please pray to our GOD, who hears all prayers, that He will help you to gain your freedom from that evil man.
Do not let him continue to victimize you ! GOD bless you !
I have thought of your suggestion proudsurvivor. Would a sign be posted on the confessional: “All allegations of sex abuse must be reported to the gardai”?
BUT, that does not absolve the priest who is bound by the Seal of Confession. He can NOT reveal anything he hears during a penetant’s confession. Spiritual direction, or counselling or a private conversation is a different matter. The seal covers what is said when a penetant confesses his sins.
A sign outside the confession – or room or whatever – MIGHT prevent someone confessing such a sin, but it would not in turn permit the priest-confessor to violate the seal of confession. The priest-confessor has no control over what sins the penetant will confess.
There is nothing and never has been anything to prevent the penetant from revealing what he/she said or what the priest said during his confession.
I do know that here in Ontario the seal of confession is not recognized by the courts. I also know that priests have been counselled not to hear the confessions of priests who have been accused, an attempt I presume to avoid being put in a legal pickle? But, there is no duty in Ontario to report such alleagtions to police: there is however a duty to report to Children’s Aid.
I have heard clergy try to equate confession to private talks regarding sex abuse allegations to confession in order to avoid giving evidence. In so doing they themeslves have been eroding what is meant by the seal of confession.
I don’t have an answer, and, as yet, I see none.
What happens, if, for example, someone says he/she told “Father” during confession that he/she had been sexually abused by, for example, the bishop? And what if that is a fallacy? By fallacy I mean that the penetant never in fact said such a thing during his/her confession. In such a situation the priest-confessor can not refute without violating the seal of confession.
If on the other hand the penitent DID include such information during confession, then, if such legislation exists, the priest is legally bound to report to police. He can try to get the penitent to speak after confession, and he can explain the situation he is in, but, if the victim refuses, the priest is stuck. If he then fails to reporto, and if the penitent at some time tells police that the abuse was disclosed to Father So-and-So in confession, then, Father So-and-So will be charged and convicted.
For those who beleive in the confession and the inviolable seal, any thoughts?
Sylvia,
I’m trying to find my other comments re: my thoughts on the seal of confession where I outlined my first telling Fr. Craig Scott. I can’t seem to find the article they linked to, and I think they are relevant to this discussion. Any ideas?
For those who do not believe in the seal of confession! They MUST break seal confession, as Ireland is asking!
http://www.ncregister.com/blog/ireland-priests-must-break-seal-of-confession/
If we don’t learn from our mistake or danger of a pedophile priest in the confessional, we will repeat it over and over………for how long?
Sylvia: The answer is fairly simple: the confessional booth! It permits anonymity for the penitent and the priest as one cannot 100% identify another when screens and darkness obscure each from the others view.
FYI, this has been the law in Ontario for years! The replacement of the Family & Child Welfare Act states that clergy do not possess the right of privilege in confessions when someone reveals that they have abused or been abused by others. The province has only tried once (that I know of) to charge a priest with failing to report. The charges did not proceed because the confession took place in a confessional booth and thus the complainant could not identify the priest with 100% certainty. (It was at the Hamilton Cathedral where more than one priest hears confessions.)
The Church position has not changed. Priests are NEVER PERMITTED to breach the seal of confession under ANY circumstance, no matter what the state demands. The priest is to choose jail rather than violate his sacred obligation to secrecy owed to every penitent.
Fr. Tim
(Sylvia: I’ll fade into the background again so as not to generate more difficult comments in response to my notes. I do hope you’re having a great summer!)
I don’t believe for one minute that there are many ( if any ) preists who would opt to do time in prison rather than report the confession of a monster who is on a rampage to destroy innocent children. In fact if there is one who choose jail then he should also go to hell.
Jail first , then hell.
Father Tim….Please do not fade into the background on this issue. To me there are many questions to ask, and to recieve answers from an “inside” perspective. I for one would never want an innocent priest jailed for a molesting priests’ crimes.
John
Thanks for your comments Fr. Moyle. Much appreciated.
I agree re the use of confessionals. I think for a number of reasons the use of the confessional should be restored. And true, the grille is an aid to secreting the identity of priest and penitnent, some grilles more than others.
The more I try to think it through though the less I see what can be achieved by such legislation. At best, IF a priest chose to report that he had heard in confession that Father X is molesting he is limited to reporting what he knows, i.e., someone – identity probably unknown – said in confession that Father X is molesting. The priest-confesor would have no evidence to corroborate the allegation, and in most instances would not even know the identity of the penitent. What good is that? Would police even entertain such a vague allegation? I doubt it.
I would venture to guess that many know the identities of a number of “alleged” molesters, but, because a complainant refuses to go to police, or speak out, or is legally gagged (by for example an out-of-court settlement) there is nothing that can be done with the information. Even if the molester is alive and well with unfettered access to children, there is legally nothing that can be done. I don’t think that’s right, but, that’s the way our system works. I really think a priest would be laughed out of a police station he sauntered in and said: “I want to report what I heard in confession today. Father X is allegedly molesting children. Sorry, that’s all I know. I am fulfilling my duty to report. I don’t know who told me. I don’t have any details of the allegations.”
Where can that go?
Yes, I am aware that Ontario has legislation requiring clergy to report sex abuse learned of during confession. I wasn’t aware however that there was a failed attempt to charge a priest. Do you know more on the circumstances Father?
The intersting thing with the Ontario legislation is that lawyers are exempt. Why? Why is it that lawyers are exempt. If reporting is deemed of such import that priests are legally obliged to violate the Seal of Confession or risk sanction, why not lawyers? And why, for that matter, not doctors?
Bear with me. I’m thinking out loud.
Aren’t we all, have the right to have a lawyer on our side? Innocente or guilty? That why I think lawyer are not required to devoulge his clients attributes!
As for the seal of confession, who’s the big ASS who brought back the individual confession any way? One pedophile priest behind the grill is ONE bloody pedophile priest to many!!!! What’s wrong with the way it was 2 years ago? I just think it is a strong hold for those who like to play GOD.
Ask any victim of clergy if they can remember being groomed in the confessional!
People we are talking about young kids being put in a situation that should not be tolorated in 2011
I was told that I did not have any beliefs (in french croyance) and I’ve answered them evertime “My mother had strong beliefs and her mother, my grandmother also had a beautifull strong belief, but when this beliefs take money from the flock to hide these pedophiles for their crimes then the public in general should demand accounts and answeres, if not we should all live in Russia or some dictature country, No?
Yes Lowell, everyone has a right to a lawyer, even molesters. That is not my concern. My concern is, for example, lawyers who are involved in brokering pay-offs with a diocese and a victim. Do you not think it strange that a lawyer can witness such a pay-off and, with full knowledge that the molester priest is still at large, remain silent?
What of cases such as the Bathurst Diocese and the Bastarache ‘settlements? Lawyers are privy to information that known molesters are out and about. Who are those molesters? Where are they?
That’s my concern regarding lawyers and their exclusion from any duty to report.
As for victims being groomed in the confessional, that’s a different matter from priests being mandated to violate the seal of confession.
But, think through. You know and I know that clerical molesters groom everywhere they can. For goodness sake, they groom right under the noses of the child’s parents and right in the child’s home. They even groom the parents themselves! It isn’t logical to ban everything a molester uses to groom his prey.
I’m not being confrontational Lowell. I’m trying with you and others to think this through logically. I want an end to it as much as you.
You mention individual confession being brought back. Individual confession was never gone. There were priests who held Penitential Services, but those were not to replace individual confession. Mortal sins still had to be confessed individually to a priest.
And, you’re absolutley right. We all should and must demand accountability and answers.
Sylvia, are you saying that you support the notion that not breaking “ The Seal” is more important than protecting vulnerable children from a confessed molester?
Do you really believe that an “idea” a “religious ritual” “The Seal” is more valuable than a human being? How can someone who has suffered at the hands of a molester reconcile such a pathetic claim with a personal Loving God? How can anyone for that matter?
The God that I know and love does NOT!!!
Hopefully all victims of sexual abuse know or come to know the same God!
Read what I have had to say on this so far Larry. I can not see how this will lead to charges and conviction of anyone. I really can not. I am trying to see the possibility, but, as yet, I can’t.
As I said elsewhere, legislation was introduced in Ireland five years to allow for charges against those who cover-up. A great idea. But, it’s never been used. The threshold for conviction is too high.
I think this proposed legislation will bear the same fate: I really don’t believe it will aid police in laying charges against a single clerical molester. It may temporarily pacify the masses, but I don’t think it will do what it is presumably intended to do.
What’s the point then? Why not start by fixing up the five-year-old legislation which has proven unenforceable and therefore useless?
There have to be more effective ways. Not knee-jerk reactions which I am beginning to think are geared to pacify, but something with teeth which can actually lead to prosecutions and convictions.
Sylvia, I do see your point and your argument is valid but the conclusion does not have the support of sound premises.
The implicit assumption is that convictions and charges are the primary reason for “Breaking The Confessional Seal,” but for an unsuspecting child who will be molested tomorrow by the molester who just confessed today about one he molested yesterday, charges and convictions are the least of this child’s impending troubles. Charges and convictions are a much smaller victory for victims I believe than what most people think. The best thing that results is the fact that the predator is supposed to be restrained from hurting others. A kid being raped by a monster is not thinking, this will all be made better when he gets charged and convicted.
To address the second premise of your argument which is – if police won’t lay charges why make new laws ?- Nowhere in the world is the making of legislative law designed by those who are hired to enforce it. Whether a particular law is customarily enforced or not is a separate matter from the substantive benefit or quality of it.
You have stated “Why not start by fixing up the five-year-old legislation which has proven unenforceable and therefore useless? Forcing ( laws are intended to force people to do good who of their own volition refuse) clergy to report even through “breaking the seal” is an important amendment to a pre-existing necessary law.
The law isn’t useless , the fact that it has not been enforced renders it useless, therefore, work at enforcing it not abolishing it.
Sylvia, I have responded to your argument but at the heart of the point I expressed in the posts above is the truth that no “ confessional seal” or any other idea or religious ritual is more valuable than one single human heart. Everything that Jesus did in His mission on earth revealed that no commandment written on paper nor on stone is more valuable than any human being, He really did come to re-inscribe the covenant into the human heart. When he was told by the “holy men” that He was breaking the laws of Moses, He stood firmly and lovingly beside those who were the lowest , most vulnerable and despised even though He was breaking the laws written in stone but they didn’t realize then that He was God and Moses was instructed by God to write them in stone. We know now who He is, why ist it we still don’t see?
Larry, where is it written that Jesus had broken the laws that were given to Moses?
Larry, when are you going to apologize for making changes to Holy Scripture?
Tell me please Larry what you believe a priest should be mandated to report from the confessional?
Let me put the questions to you. In each instance the question should be applied to situations in which the pentetant/victim is known to the confessor and the reverse:
(1) What he hears from a penitent (minor) who says he is being abused by a priest but doesn’t want anyone to know?
(2) What he hears from a penitent (minor) who says he/she is being abused by a priest and agrees to talk to the confessor afterwards and to go to police
(3) What he hears from an adult who says during confession that he/she was abused by a priest 30 years ago and the pentintent does not want to go to police
(4) What he hears from an adult during confession that he/she was molested 30 years ago and the penintent is agreeable to discussing his/her options with the priest outside confession?
And as far as a priest molester who confesses is concerned:
(1) What does a confessor do when a priest – whose identity he does not know – confesses he is molesting or has molested? or that he has preyed on the vulnerable?
What do you believe he can or should report to police?
(2) What does a confessor do when he thinks he may know the identity of a priest who tells him in confession that he, the penitent/ is molesting or has molested?
What do you believe in those instances the priest-confessor can or should report to police?
Sylvia , all laws are based on universal principles and not particulars. No legal system could function if it could make laws only after considering every possible relevant instance because instances are infinite and the legal system is designed to make” corrections of the law” after the general law has been implemented and for the same reason no system can ever rightly claim to be perfect.
So if one addresses from principle , each of the instances from the list above then their solutions become less ambiguous but only as they adhere to the more general of principles. I will list mine alphabetically so as not to confuse them with your list.
E.g.
A. The most fundamental principle of all, every individual human being deserves to be treated with equal dignity and respect.
B. There is no idea, dogma, religious rite or law that is more valuable than a human person they are designed for.
C. If a child says they have been molested , the first thing the listener needs to do is believe the child.
D. The respect and dignity of a sexual assault victim is paramount to anyone else involved directly or indirectly ( to limit re-victimizing) and therefore the wishes of the victim to remain un-identified or not must be respected. This does not preclude the listener from reporting the identity of the molester.
E. Reporting the identity of a suspected molester to police does not imply that the molester is guilty but if he was, it may be one step closer to stopping him.
F. It is un-natural and immoral to Do or Say nothing when Doing something or Saying something may help to free a victim from bondage or prevent a molester from creating a new one.
Do nothing and Saying nothing are no more a passivity than their respective counterparts.
Last but by far not least I would say that the principle most relevant to the heart of the issue in question on the subject of this thread is much like the first principle I have expressed , only of higher order and that is : No Church, no religion, no dogma, no ritual or celebration is more worthy than the Deity it intends to celebrate or worship. I hear far to often so much more reverence for church and dogma than for God!!!
Sylvia. Larry has committed Blasphemy in the above post.
Where he says (When He was told by the holy men that He was breaking the laws of moses, He stood firmly and lovingly beside those who were the lowest, most vulnerable and despised even though He weas breaking the laws written in stone, but they didn’t realize then that He was God—
Blaspemy is speech,writings, gestures,or thoughts which show contumely to or contempt for God or detract from His honor,whether such contumely, contempt or dishonor beintended or not.
If someone needs to lie in order to try to make their untenuous point it is grave deceit, and in this case , blasphemy.
I have asked Larry several times on this site to show me where Jesus said this or where He broke the laws written in stone, which, of course, are the Ten Commandments, and he has not done so.
To misquote Jesus deliberately is quite sinful to do it out of lack of knowledge is deceitful.
Please ask him to retract that statement before other action is necessary.
I have been following the “conversation” for a while and biting my knuckles(as opposed to my tongue!) as I cannot believe that the exchange as been in too great a part a bureaucratic exchange of ideas between what sounded like a civil servant reunion…The “privilege of confession”, lawyer’s “‘privileged client relation”…
What a load of nonsense! As far as child abuse is concerned, as soon as you start to rationalize if it should be reported, when, how, you may as well shut this site down because there can never be a justification. Period. Period.Period.
If anyone feels bound by these “rules” and that would prevent them/him/her from coming to the defense of a child for fear of loosing their job, their title, their position,
hear me SCREAM…Child abuse is child abuse is child abuse!! There can be no forgiveness, no maybe I should or shouldn’t…If anyone can convince me of any greater sin, any greater treason as human beings, any greater transgression( for those who keep calling on Jesus and everything else Holly) only then I will be convinced that the rituals you defend so blindly are more important than the life of a single child…
Preventing the abuse of the next child should be stronger than the desire to preserve the man made rituals, the hierarchy, the bureaucracy that makes us feel so comfortable!!! We want to change things but we want them to stay the same… Every stone can crumble to the ground if it means that not ONE child would be abused again!!…That is my belief and my religion, as I know it was intended before the great prostitution!…
The clergy in all this?…They shouldn’t attempt to be measured with the same yardstick as the other sinners , the other criminals of the same mold…They were supposed to lead, heal, protect, teach…Their punishment should be greater, if anything.
They can have no excuse! That is why “the church” is becoming so irrelevant. They are asking for forgiveness but it is only a ploy to maintain their “position”.
WE shouldn’t fall in their trap, their rationalizing that the poor priests were just another part of society, that it was the fault of the 60′s and 70′s; others in positions of authority have not been as maligned as the poor church; priests or pedophiles, were not understood, ….treatment was inadequate…
Hogwash! If we stay that course pretty soon this “ministry” will speak more of the church than the children abused by the church.
My rant before I go away on vacation!!
Be well. Remember the child.
“..better he had not been born…” “…tie a millstone around his neck…” What is so difficult to understand about that?
JG
JG your HATE for the Catholic Church comes through loud and clear.
Thank GOD you did not create the world. There would be no place for any sinner in your world, not even you.
Extremism, whether it be by an Islamist or an agnostic, is still extremism!
GOD is capable of forgiving ALL sins, right up to our last breath. If you do not believe that, you are putting GOD in a box of your own making. HE would be GOD only if HE followed you. Thank GOD it is not that way.
Sheep!!..I won’t abandon you!…
In 7 typed lines you have called on GOD 5 times… on He twice..you have equated that with the Catholic Church…while saying what HE and i have intended or are capable of… boxing!…
You have managed to sucker punch Islam on the return swipe!!…you call me an extremist and you started this tirade with HATE …
Isn’t that a bit extreme!?.. Take a deep breath, take more time to read and read again as I mentioned before! One week would be good and I’ll take it this time. Try to get the big picture, don’t be offended …
Remember that there is a fine line between LOVE and hate(doesn’t deserve the capital letters!)and what came out of your 15 minutes(max!) of pondering doesn’t take that into account. …Get rid of the ugly words, they are like a bull in a china shop…and one has to wonder if they speak of bliss or folly…
I am more concerned about the content than I am of the container; if that makes me an extremist, I know I am not alone, regardless of the Divine calling…
Get rid of the anger and accept “your” sin…or whatever it is churning under the wool of that lonely sheep that makes him reveal a wolf’s canines…
Don’t pretend to know what you have not yet seen or heard.
I wish you “extreme” Peace.
JG
So you can count—————
I believe that regardless of who we are; if a child tells us that they are being sexually abused, or abused in any fashion that we have an obligation to report it and protect this child. To not do so and jeopardize the health and safety of that child and any other child that may fall victim to such a predator is criminal.
There are some deeds that even a sacrament must not over look. My goodness how on earth will our vulnerable people in society ever find peace or a safe haven, if we continue to find excuses to protect the guilty.
Brenda Brunelle
I come back Brenda to the situation of the victim who does not want the information to go any farther. What are we to do? If the victim absolutely does not want to go to police, what are we to do? I say “we” because I include myself and others in that category.
As I said to proudsurvivor, I do believe that Church officials have nurtured the hesitance of a victim to go to police. I personally beleive that Church officials are happy if it is kept quiet.
How do we deal with this? I think that thankfully more and more victims are getting the courage to move forward and go to police, or, as in your case, ready to speak out publicly. But there are still many who are not. I do believe that with a little encouragement many would take that step, but, they need that encouragement, and, when their molester is still alive, they sometimes need the reminder that other children are perhaps being molested and that yet others are probably at risk.
So, what can be done?
Charge those who fail to take actions when they are dealing with a willing victim? I believe that to the depth of my being. I can not conceive why there haven’t been charges laid in the past. We have example of the Irish legislation which was passed specifically to address that situation, but it’s never been put to use because the threshold to attain a conviction is too high. So, it sounded good to one and all at the time, but in reality it’s useless. Those who have cover-up go uncharged. And that had nothing to do with mandatory reporting and confession. If ‘they’ haven’t been able to charge under that legislation, how in the name of goodness is anything going to change with this new proposed legislation?
And now there is talk of an exception to mandatory reporting and the Seal of Confession. There will be a mandate to report if the victim is unwilling to proceed. That leaves those who are willing to proceed, and it seems to me that if they are willing to proceed beyond telling a priest in confession it’s a non-issue?
Help me sort it out. I can’t make sense of it.
JG., I agree wholeheartedly: “..better he had not been born…” “…tie a millstone around his neck…”
But, we are tied to a legal system which demands proof/evidence. I have actually asked a priest: “What do you want, Father? Pictures?”
The answer, but the way, was “Yes, that would be nice.” And, he was serious.
I can not go to police with allegations which I obtained second-hand.
Nor can I go to police to tell them that I have been told that Father X molested a child but that that victim does not want to come forward.
Can that be changed? Can we reach a situation whereby you and I can report such allegations and expect some sort of investigation?
Is there any point in going to a diocese with such allegations? I doubt it. ‘They’ know the law of the land better than we do, and they know how to parse the law to legally suit their needs. Priest who are who who become lawyers are becoming a coomon fixture in many dioceses.
So, how to ensure the millstones go where they belong? I don’t know.
Larry, I can’t “reply” to your last comment. The system won’t let me. I think I prefer the old number system better, but, I have no choice.
I think we’re not going to get anywhere with this Larry. You think I am defending. I am not. I am trying to make sense of the proposed enactment of a law which mandates that priests report what they hear in confession regarding clerical sex abuse.
I am trying to find out what a priest is obliged to in order not to break the law of the land, even if it means that in so doing he violates the Seal of Confession.
You say that in one scenario the priest is not prohibted from reporting the identity of the molester. To whom does he report Larry? And, what does he report? That’s one of my points. At this point in time, at least here in Canada, the police will do nothing with such a report. They are deemed “rumour and innuendo.”
You also say “F. It is un-natural and immoral to Do or Say nothing when Doing something or Saying something may help to free a victim from bondage or prevent a molester from creating a new one.”
What would the priest be obliged to say or do that you believe would ensure he complies by a law which mandates he report, but a law which exempts reporting in those cases where the penitent does not want to come forward?
I agree Larry that we have a problem. I personally know of men, both clergy and non-clergy, who are said to be sexual predators. I can do nothing with that information. If those with first-hand information are not ready to speak, I/we can do nothing. That’s the law. It’s a problem. What can we do? What would you do? What do you perceive as ‘doing something’ which both honours the desires of the victim/penitent or whatever AND ensures a suspect molester does not prey upon others? I would like to know because I truly do not have the answer. Would that I did!
Larry, you are making it up as you go along. You mix fact,emotions,hearsay,opinion, and condemnation and come up with a justification for your conclusions about what the Law should be. That is disingenous set of opinions sent under the guise of logic. You also would have God work in the fashion which would suit your notions.
Sylvia , first of all I apologize because in fact it did appear to me that you were defending the ritual in question.
If the confessor happened to be a victim, ( not to sure realistically how much more rare that would be compared to the confessor being a molester) however, assuming it does happen and the victim wishes to remain unknown and the offender is still living, then the priest should disclose all pertinent information excluding the identity of the victim to the “proper authorities.”
I am aware of the fact that -at this time- reports to often/Perhaps usually go nowhere beyond this step. But therein lies the problem.
“ Proper Authorities” need to be clearly defined and established as a crucial element in a process toward justice with respect to this particular offence. It should be obvious a priest in this situation would not constitute any definition of “Proper Authority.” While many or most police are certainly not qualified to fit any definition of the title , they are still the closest thing we have – at this time -.
I won’t pretend to know just how such a definition should be formulated but surely it must include persons who would be extensively trained in the subject of sexual assault and the delicate nature with respect to the psychology of victims. There are plenty of competent and intelligent people who are capable of identifying the criteria and requirements to qualify “ proper authorities.”
Sylvia, If you know men who are sexual predators you can tell the police what you know and you can warn anyone who’s children are in harms way. You do not ever have to name the victim. I was once warned by a certain lawyer ( I happen to know) to keep my kids away from a certain individual and I in turn warned many others. This is not the ideal course of action against these predators but one should still act within the parameters of limitations keeping in mind that protecting children is more important even than punishing predators. Sharing such devastating events that occurred to one’s self as a child is definitely not for everyone. No one should ever underestimate the stuff it takes, for some the mere thought of disclosure is more unbearable than silence.
We aren’t supermen though Sylvia , we can’t make things “ all better” with all our efforts but we can continue to be a sign to those who suffer, a sign that they have brothers and sisters who care and who love them genuinely and you do a super job of that always.
Larry, I am still waiting to find out where it is written that jesus broke the Lawa that were given to Moses. If you are willing to state that, you should be willing to back it up. Or is this just more of your )(*&(^%*&^% X%y-_+1
Larry, now I get it- you are a coward who hangs back and snipes, butwill also lie and not defend your lies! Now people, knowing this is the kind of a person you are need pay you NO heed !
Larry, I honestly no longer even think of directing anyone with clerical sex abuse allegations to diocesan officials. My fears are too great that the complainant the allegations would be covered-up, hence a suspect clerical predator is left on the loose amidst a naive and/or unsuspecting flock. I refer people to police. The police should have contact information for counselling support etc. I say should. That’s another issue.
As for alerting people, in those instances in which I can, I do. However there are instances in which I am not in a position to do so. But, as you know, even alerting some does not reach the many.
As for advising police, I believe you would be hard-pressed to find a police force which would investigate such allegations without any evidence aside what I – or you, or anyone – have been told. Unfortunately Larry, it’s a dead end.
Yes, I am aware that disclosure is an extremely difficult and painful and slow process for the large majority of victims of child sex abuse. Over the years I have come to believe more firmly that silence is the molester’s ally and the victim’s foe.
So, we all do the best we can, all the while reminding victims that the shame is not theirs to bear: the shame belongs to the molester.
That is the reality.
Sylvia, to address more specifically and most importantly the original point that I responded to and from which I was diverted is the proposed law to oblige clergy to report sexual abuse even if it means breaching the “Confessional Seal.”
I believe the truth of the matter is the proposed law is aimed at removing and uncovering a tool which permits clergy to provide psychological support to “confessed” molesters without having to follow the legal obligations set within the real world.
It’s a great way to cover up in “good conscience” but not for long because evidently it isn’t going to take whole lot more to crack this new can of worms.
Do you really believe that that’s what confession is all about Larry? A ‘tool’ to provide psychological counselling for child molesters?
There is much that is sad about the sex abuse scandal and cover-up within the Roman Catholic Church. The damage done to the victims and their families is primary: beyond that is the damage done to the faith of decent Roman Catholics, and then there is the damage done to priests who must suffer because of the sins and crimes of their wicked ‘colleagues.’
I don’t know Larry. Like you I and countless others I will watch the debates and pros and cons of this proposed legislation unfold with great interest. I truly don’t think it will achieve anything. I may well be wrong, but I believe it is frought with problems which will do no more than see good priests land in jail for refusing to violate the Seal of Confession.
Does a child molester actually go to confession? And, if he does, does he actually confess that he is a molester?
If he happens to have a smidgen of a conscience left, and with that smidgen beelives that he needs to confess, do you really and truly believe a child molester is going to do so to a priest who can identify him?
If he has a smidgen of a conscience then he probably has a smidgen of guilt and shame. Do you really think he wants to expose himself to a priest who can identify him?
I don’t think so. But, I could be wrong.
I’m thinking now that some day that is something i would like to do. I would like to talk to convicted clerical molesters to hear what they have to say. Did they confess? If yes, why? And, if yes, how did they pick their confessor? Were they concerned that they would be identified? Did they take pains to ensure they would not be identified? I would like to know.
For now, I will watch. I pray that children are protected as much as is humanly possibly. I pray that sexual predators are rooted out of the priesthood. And I pray for the good priests who suffer for the sins and crimes of the wolves in sheep’s clothing in their midst.
I pray that God’s will be done.
You still are dodging Larry
Sylvia, I did not say that a tool is what confession “is all about? “ That’s unfounded assumption. I like you am a Catholic and I am well aware of the sacredness of all the sacraments including reconciliation and I am aware and I am of the conviction that they are sacred because of the presence of Christ in them.
I don’t believe that the sacrament of Holy Orders is “only a tool” either but there is no doubt in my mind that it has and continues to be used as a tool and I think it takes a very gullible person to think that it isn’t.
To assume that a molester has no conscience is to assume he is not capable of knowing right from wrong and therefore not responsible for his deeds. In a proper functioning rational mind sin is rightly imputed by guilt. If a guilty man needs to express his turmoil to another human being without having to turning himself over to the law, it would be smart ( in a manner of speaking) to ask a brother priest to hear his “confession.” They could sit in an open room for all it matters. Identifiableness would have no bearing on the outcome with respect to confidence.
Just from the relatively little the world has come to know about cover up in the church at every level it has demonstrated clearly that they will act in defiance of the laws of the land , in defiance every need of all victims and in defiance of the scientific field of psychology in particular with the established determination that paedophiles can’t be cured .
God’s will be done!
A very interesting commentary on some fundamentally difficult questions to answer. Does the state have the right to use force to compel an organization to disavow it’s tenants of trust and core beliefs, in this example, the state imposing penalties against those unwilling to breach their organization’s outlines regarding confessional statements in cases of sexual abuse. These are very tricky ethical concerns which must be treated with the utmost concern for all involved. As a few have noted, many individual relationships do enjoy protection from state intrusion that would supplant the trust in those relationships, lawyers, counsellors, not sure if spouses can be compelled to testify against one other …. etc. As I find common ground with Sylvia, think I require a period of reflect upon the entire conversation to help solidify an opinion. Part of my homework I am going to review some videos presented by Michael Sandel of Harvard University on ‘Justice: what is the right thing to do.” I mention this as with a good book, etc., perhaps others might find some of the content useful when exploring such complex and tricky ethical and moral concerns.
I find it difficult to believe a sexual predator clergy/priest will go to confession and expect another brother priest to give him absolution.
Would this priest encourage his brother priest to turn himself in to the legal authorities? I hope so!
I do not think folks go to confession in droves like they did in the past.
Some people go to confession out of habit, fear of death, afraid what other people will say if they do not go to confession.
Others folks go to confession because it makes them feel good (like walking on a cloud) or many go because they just want to follow the Roman Catholic Church’s teachings. Either way, it is a personal decision and choice.
As for me my last confession was early this past year.
I’m not going back. My choice. I do not trust or respect any clergy that includes the current pontiff. I do not need the all male hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church telling me how I should conduct and live my life.
As for priests not breaking the seal of the confessional.
Fr. Tim Moyle explained it well.
They rather go to jail. I say then go..so be it. It is your choice and decision. I hope other prisoners do not think you are the sexual predator priest. Many see a priest and believe with all the cover-ups going on around the world in the Catholic Church all Catholic clergy are automatic sexual predators. Hurting children. Sadly, many folks will not see the difference or even care in finding out the truth.
Honestly, I do not even want a priest at my death bed.
I’m not angry and there is no need for me to be rude.
I’m simply expressing myself the best way that I can here.
God is enough for me.
Lina
Lina, considering ALL of the above writing, do you think you are a Roman Catholic? If so, how do you arrive at that conclusion?
You are always free to think what you want, but you do not belong to the Lions Club simply because you occasionally attend one of their events.
’1 abandoned sheep’,
You posted a prayer under the title box “DIALOGUE” on (May 18, 2011 at 7:20 pm)
This post pretty well tells me where you are coming from including your username!
Here are your own words ’1 abandoned sheep’,
“”After reading some of the recent report and STUDY (so called) released by the Catholic Church in the U S A, based on the Church-provided info., I can only say and think–
(the prayer)
‘Come, Lord Jesus,COME- quickly please. Please lord, deal firmly with these monster-Priests who are taking over YOUR Church! Your children thirst for JUSTICE, and for cleansing of YOUR Church.
LORD, the Church does not belong to the Priests, Bishops, Cardinals, or the Pope ! It belongs to YOU! Please bankrupt it, bring it to all of their knees,aand see that all who are guilty of these atrocities are jailed for the rest of their natural lives.
Oh Lord forgive us who have not dealt with this matter sooner, and who have ignored Church excuses which we knew were wrong.
My Lord, we wish for Eternity with YOU, but, how can we survive if out leaders are corrupt, our Church broken and infested, and our way blurred by the Evil which is present?
Help us ,please oh Lord !’
—————————-
Have a good day…1 abandoned sheep!
Lina