Cloutier: Father Bernard Cloutier

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Bernard Cloutier (Father Bernard Cloutier)

Priest Diocese of Sault Ste. Marie.  Ordained 1971.  GUILTY.  November 2009 sentenced to five years in jail.  Decision upheld on appeal.

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10 December 2013:  Letter From Vatican to Jerome Myre re his letter to Pope Francis

24 September 2013:  Jerome Myre victim impact statement given at Father Bernard Cloutier parole board hearing in Joyceville, Ontario

23 October 2013:  “Abuse victim writes to the Pope” & related article

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30 June 2011:  Appeal of conviction dismissed by Ontario court of Appeal – leave to appeal sentence allowed but court states it would dismiss the appeal. Ordered to register as a sex offender.  Appeal pending- date unknown.   Appeal hearing of 28 October 2010 was cancelled – Cloutier’s lawyer M. Gregory Ellies was appointed  a Judge of the Ontario Superior Court of Justice on 01 October 2010.   Cloutier has retained Toronto lawyer  Brian Greenspan (Greenspan Humphrey Lavine) .   Greenspan will have to familiarise himself with the file before an appeal date is set.  Cloutier, sentenced to five years in jail, is out and about pending the appeal.

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30 June 2011: R v Cloutier (Ontario Court of Appeal dismisses appeal from conviction, allows leave to appeal the sentence but would dismiss the appeal, and orders Cloutier to register as a sex offender)

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The following dates and information are drawn from available Canadian Catholic Church Directories (CCCD) and the 1980 Ontario Catholic Directory.

24 September 2013:   Parole board hearing in Joyceville, Ontario (this was two years into Cloutier’s five year sentence.) Two victims travelled to Joyceville to give victim impact statements.    Early parole denied – Cloutier will remain in jail until 14 October 2014.

2012, 1011, 2010:  address and phone number for Diocesan Centre (CCCD)

June 2011:  appeal of conviction dismissed

2002, 2000. 1996, 1994, 1993: Pastor, St. Agnes Church, North Bay, Ontario (CCCD)

1992, 1991: Pastor, Resurrection Church, Sturgeon Falls, Ontario (CCCD)

1985-1985:  Pastor, St. Theresa of Avila, Cache Bay, Ontario (CCCD)

1980:St. Louis de France Church, Espanola (with Father J.J. Tourigny) (CCCD)

1973-74:St. Joseph Church, Chelmsford (with Msgr. L.J. Cholette) (CCCD)

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MEDIA coverage and blogs

23 October 2013:  “Abuse victim writes to the Pope” & related article

19 October 2012: Defrock bad priests: Sex abuse victims

02 July 2011: Victim relieved as court denies appeal

18 November 2010: BLOG  Here we go again

23 September 2010:  Priest charged with sexual assault files appeal

February 2010:  Five $3-M lawsuits filed against priest, Roman Catholic diocese

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Sentencing brings some closure to victims of priest’s abuse.

 Northern Life

Nov 10, 2009

By: Laurel Myers – Sudbury Northern Life

Four grown men, with tears streaming down their faces, stood up in a courtroom and told their stories of lifelong pain, feelings of shame and loneliness.

More than a quarter of a century ago, the four men, between 12 and 17 years of age at the time, each served as an altar boy at their local Catholic church, under the guidance of Father Bernard Cloutier.

On Monday, the 68-year-old parish priest stood before a Sudbury court and was handed down a five-year prison sentence after being convicted of four counts each of indecent assault and gross indecency, as well as two counts of sexual assault, against the four victims. The events were alleged to have taken place over a period of nine years, while Cloutier was a parish priest in Sudbury, Chelmsford and Espanola.

Throughout the day-long sentencing hearing, Cloutier sat still behind his lawyer, his eyes not straying from the floor in front of him, except when one of his victims turned to address him directly after reading his victim impact statement to the court.

“Bernie, I trusted you and my family trusted you, and you betrayed us,” said one of the victims, who cannot be named, with his wife standing tight at his side. “Today, I forgive you for the sin you committed against me and I want you to pray every day to my father and ask his forgiveness for what you did.”

While Cloutier momentarily raised his eyes from the ground and turned slighlty toward the man, he never actually made eye contact with him.

Following the sentencing, assistant Crown attorney Diana Fuller said there were feelings of both disappointment and relief amongst the victims and their families.

“I think naturally they were disappointed that Cloutier refused to take responsibility and to apologize, because … they feel a sense of guilt and blame, which is so unfair,” she said. “Had Father Cloutier apologized to them and taken responsibility, that would have helped to allow them to move on.”

However, the priest’s conviction and subsequent sentencing also brought with it an enormous sense of relief.

“We’re making it loud and clear that they were innocent victims in all of this and they were very courageous in being able to come forward and stand up to him, stand up to the church and stand up to people who don’t want to know that this kind of thing happened,” Fuller said.

While the victims were not required to read their victim impact statements before the courts, three of the men and two of their wives read their statements aloud.

“(Those statements) expressed the haunting effects of the abuse, the way the abuse tormented them for decades. I think they wanted Father Cloutier to hear from their own mouths, just what he had done to them.”

While the defence argued for a two-year prison sentence for the priest, the crown suggested eight years. However, she said five years was a fair decision.

“I think the sentence reflects denunciation and public deterrence,” she said. “The public and society has to know that if you are in a position of trust — and if you’re a priest, that trust is almost absolute — and you breach that trust, and you betray and exploit your position and those people who believe in you, you will be harshly punished.

“Churches and schools and hospitals are public institutions that we all have to invest our trust in for them to function properly. If we can’t trust them, those professionals won’t be able to do their job,” she continued. “We protect our social institutions when we send a clear message for people who abuse positions of trust that the penalty will be severe.”

She said Justice Paul Kane took Cloutier’s age into consideration when determining the sentence, as well as his contributions to society since the abuse took place.

“In the time from 1983 to now, he has apparently been a parish priest who has done a lot of good work and is much admired by his parishioners,” she said.

According to Fuller, Cloutier’s lawyer has already filed an appeal of the decision with the Ontario Court of Appeal.

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Convicted Priest to be Sentenced in November

North Bay Nugget

08 August 2009

SUDBURY — Roman Catholic priest Bernard Cloutier, convicted last month of sexually molesting young men a quarter century ago at various church parishes in the Sudbury area, will be sentenced in a Sudbury courtroom Nov. 9.

A date for the sentencing of the 68-year-old priest was set Tuesday.

Cloutier was originally charged with 16 charges of sex-related offences involving five young men.

Following a lengthy trial, he was found guilty of 11 of the charges involving four of the five males.

Superior Court Justice Paul Kane convicted Cloutier of five counts of gross indecency, four of indecent assault and two counts of sexual assault on four male teens.

When arrested, Cloutier was serving as a parish priest in North Bay.

In a ruling that took five hours to read, the judge said he found the actions of the priest, who was in his 30s at the time, constituted “a marked departure from the decent conduct expected of the average Canadian in the circumstances,” given “the nature of the act alleged and the position of trust and responsibility which Father Cloutier held as a religious leader.”

At one point in his 87-page decision, Kane said he noted the priest’s assaults on one of the males caused the victim to doubt his own sexuality, “at an age when similar youth are normally permitted to develop such identity among their peers.”

During the trial, one of the victims testified he was subjected to several incidents over several years, both in Espanola and later at the family’s next home in Massey.

Two others testified Cloutier assaulted them at a “pop and chip” party he hosted for them at the parish rectory on a Friday night in the fall of 1982.

The two were given alcohol by Cloutier, they said.

One of the two was 12 at the time.

Another man testified Cloutier had fondled him repeatedly while the priest was stationed at St. Louis de France parish in Espanola in the mid- 1970s. The man was 15 at the time.

Another, a former altar boy, told the trial he woke up in bed one day with the priest lying on top of him.

The man said that as a boy, he and a friend would often visit Cloutier in the church rectory to listen to music on the priest’s stereo system.

Cloutier did not testify at the trial.

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Convicted Priest to be Sentenced in November

North Bay Nuggett

05 August 2009

Posted By BOB VAILLANCOURT, SUN MEDIA

SUDBURY — Roman Catholic priest Bernard Cloutier, convicted last month of sexually molesting young men a quarter century ago at various church parishes in the Sudbury area, will be sentenced in a Sudbury courtroom Nov. 9.

A date for the sentencing of the 68-year-old priest was set Tuesday.

Cloutier was originally charged with 16 charges of sex-related offences involving five young men.

Following a lengthy trial, he was found guilty of 11 of the charges involving four of the five males.

Superior Court Justice Paul Kane convicted Cloutier of five counts of gross indecency, four of indecent assault and two counts of sexual assault on four male teens.

When arrested, Cloutier was serving as a parish priest in North Bay.

In a ruling that took five hours to read, the judge said he found the actions of the priest, who was in his 30s at the time, constituted “a marked departure from the decent conduct expected of the average Canadian in the circumstances,” given “the nature of the act alleged and the position of trust and responsibility which Father Cloutier held as a religious leader.”

At one point in his 87-page decision, Kane said he noted the priest’s assaults on one of the males caused the victim to doubt his own sexuality, “at an age when similar youth are normally permitted to develop such identity among their peers.”

During the trial, one of the victims testified he was subjected to several incidents over several years, both in Espanola and later at the family’s next home in Massey.

Two others testified Cloutier assaulted them at a “pop and chip” party he hosted for them at the parish rectory on a Friday night in the fall of 1982.

The two were given alcohol by Cloutier, they said.

One of the two was 12 at the time.

Another man testified Cloutier had fondled him repeatedly while the priest was stationed at St. Louis de France parish in Espanola in the mid- 1970s. The man was 15 at the time.

Another, a former altar boy, told the trial he woke up in bed one day with the priest lying on top of him.

The man said that as a boy, he and a friend would often visit Cloutier in the church rectory to listen to music on the priest’s stereo system.

Cloutier did not testify at the trial.

****

05 February 2008:  Police lay additonal charges against Father Bernard Cloutier

49 Responses to Cloutier: Father Bernard Cloutier

  1. Sylvia says:

    Did Father Bernard Cloutier’s appeal of his five year sentence proceed at the Ontario Court of Appeal today? I don’t see the case on this week’s docket, but I believe I see it on the monthly draft (28 Oct 2010: R v. C., Bernard A) http://www.theinquiry.ca/wordpress/charged/cloutier-bernard/

  2. ann says:

    I am very sad to read about my long time ago priest in Nairobi Kenya Father Ben cloutier who has been convicted of a sin committed long time ago. He was a very good priest If I were asked I could have told them to forgive him. He is now old and am sure he has repented if he ever did it. I would like to talk to him incase you get him let him contact me through this email adress.gathingira@yahoo.com My name is Ann.

  3. Sylvia says:

    When and for how long was Cloutier in Nairobi Ann?

  4. Sylvia says:

    I think perhaps you have the wrong Father Cloutier Ann. I did some checking: There is a Father BENOIT Cloutier in Quebec who was in Africa in the early 70s. The priest on this site who was convicted is Father BERNARD Cloutier. Might you be mistaken?

  5. Larry Green says:

    How can I not loose my faith in the whole institution of priesthood, in the light of this terrible situation of clergy sexual abuse paired with

  6. Larry: By recognizing that the Church is FAR MORE than its priests! If your faith is in us… you have put it in the wrong place! Your faith should rest on God, and upon the salvation won for us by Christ as well as upon His abiding Spirit which guides the Church on earth to keep it free from ultimate error.

    You have known good priests and bad priests in your life. How can you let the malfeasance of a few steal from you the grace and goodness of the many who have served faithfully?

    Fr. Tim

  7. 1yellowknife says:

    Agreed, Father Tim.

  8. Lina says:

    Larry,

    I will share this true story (in two parts) with you.

    I was going to take my own life in 1978. This hard working sickly nun was the one that helped me through that crisis. I felt I owed her so much…she saved me from killing myself. She was there for me when nobody else was. I kept so much pain inside me. She was an angel in disguise I opened up to. I told her things I wouldn’t even tell my own Mother, Dad or brothers.

    I remember many years later while visiting her at the convent. It was around the 1990′s.

    This well known and lovable nun told me a woman she knew was married. She continue to tell me this woman’s husband when it came to SEX her husband…’he was ridiculous and unreasonable’. Something had to be done.

    This nun told the woman what to do. To put this stuff in his drink. I remember her saying he liked to have a soft drink a short while before going to bed. The man like Coke-Cola. So the wife did what the nun told her to do. She mix this unknown stuff in his Coke-Cola drink.

    Therefore, the woman did not have to worry about having sex that night.

    I do not know the name of the foreign substance but I’m sure it was not holy water.

    Larry, I never questioned this nun about it.

    I do recall leaving the convent that afternoon and thinking this. Some husband somewhere is going to go home from work and the most natural thing in the world he would probably want to do is make love to his wife that night. But it’s not going to happened because these two women put a plan into action.

    Then I just push that thought aside thinking they must know what they are doing. This nun is a Bride of Christ.
    I wanted to be love the Lord like her and learn to suffer for Jesus just like her.

  9. Lina says:

    “The last part.”

    I just buried that memory Larry. That sister of St. Joseph died 2005. Nobody will believe that TRUE story but God knows it is true, I’m not lying, that is what really matters, GOD.

    I told my hubby ( only this past year in February) I never did put stuff in his drink like that woman did. Thank God he believes me!

    While holding me, my husband responded by saying this nun and her priest friend [this priest helped me in many sessions about my oral sex problems, no need to go there, this man of God died 1999)] did a lot of good things for me.

    But when they saw me coming they really got me…hook, line and sinker. There is nothing I can do do about the past. We have the present, that’s what is important my husband told me.

    Larry…I cannot believe I did not speak up way back then. You do not put a foreign (unknown) substance in a person’s drink without their knowledge…period.
    That’s criminal!

    In my mind this nun who help me throughout the years so many times….I let myself believe God wanted her to do that for that troubled woman.

    Oh…that is so sick of me to believe that. I hope that woman did not end up poisoning her husband.

    I had put this nun on a pedestal. A big mistake. I did not speak up, I did not questioned her or that priest because I was told to be careful of the devil, they knew what was best for me and I would see heaven, the Roman Catholic Church after all is the true Church,.. etc..

    It’s God I should had trusted Larry. I let these two immature sexual beings do my thinking for me. I was such a fool. That is why I question things now. I’ve been deeply hurt by so many folks that suppose to know what God wants for me. I do need to keep on being assertive and take better care of myself. Not to be afraid to ask questions. So I follow my conscience. That inner voice that tells you something is NOT right.

    I do not trust nuns and priests. What a rude awakening I went through. Sometimes you and God need to be enough, Larry.

    Good night!

    Lina

  10. Tim says:

    The above, while it might be true, certainly does not add to the wealth of knowledge we seek. Next, might we expect –TRUE CONFESSIONS– BY LINA?
    Tim

  11. Michel B. says:

    Oh be nice, Tim, all she is saying is that she does not trust clergy. This site along with the vast postings world over indicate that the Church has it’s share of people who have their own own challenges with being honest and being criminal in their actions. In the case of clergy however we expect better given the doctrines they espouse on the flock.Agreed there a good honest people in the fray but there are a substantial lot who are not and who are supported by many. Minimizing the issue does not help. The church needs to be honest about it’s own faillings and not be pointing the finger outwardly. It would be nice for you to reconcile yourself with Lina’s postings she has a right to her own opinion without someone trying to redicule her. Just be nice or quiet it’s not that hard.

  12. Tim says:

    Seems to be for you. Tim

  13. Michael says:

    Post# 9&10 by Lina,
    It seems she is a troubled soul. She has hate towards the catholic church and its priests. So it is better for her he get out of it is to leave the catholic church and join one of the gospel churches of southern United states. I doubt clinging to catholic church will help her mentally and emotionally. Catholic church is for people who understands the church , its limitations and failures of a few individuals, that is the case with all the churches. But Catholic church is better than many other denominations. It has the so many holy priests and nuns, that is why catholic churches are filled with faithful around the world. Few rotten apples can not destroy Catholic church. It survived 2000 years! and will continue to florish till the end of times.

  14. Lina says:

    Tim & Michael,

    You can’t take my JOY away because my joy come from the Lord!

    Alleluia!

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

    Lina

  15. Michel B. says:

    Tim & Michael,

    You can’t take my JOY away because my joy come from the Lord!

    Alleluia!

    Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

    Michel without judgement or rancour

  16. Sylvia says:

    And on that note, here’s an Alleluia treat.

    This video has gone “viral” – it was filmed in a food court in none other than St. Catharine’s Ontario. A group of very talented singers had pre-postioned themselves throughout the food court, then, one lady – presumably chatting on her cell – burst forth with the the first lines of the Hallelujah chorus. One by one others joined.

    Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE

  17. Faith and hope says:

    Lina,
    No one can take away your joy away from you! It seems from your writings that you find joy not in christ Jesus, but throwing mud at the catholic church? Then why do you cling to the Catholic church? I have never heard anything good that you write good about the catholic church!!I have many friends who are not christans or catholics. Some of them switched churches, even religions. The changed because they did not receive the spiritual norishment they wanted from a particular church or place. I wonder how could you receive spiritual norishment from a church which you hates,hates it’s leaders . Some peoples gets joy from attacking others verbally or physically. That is a kind of Saddism. Father Tim clearly pointed out in his post#6 about Faith. reflect up on those words every day, you will have peace of mind. Many who write in this site, I know are angry at the catholic church, especially you. But throwing mud at the pope, priests including the countless good and holy priests, which gives you christmas joy I encourage you to do so. After all we all seek joy and happiness in different ways: some seek murdering others, some drinking, some abusng others, some gossipping, some betraying others etc.
    Any way I believe you have chosen the wrong path for joy!It is not what jesus expects of you. Because of that I am reluctant to say a merry christmas to you!

  18. Lina says:

    RE:Post 17..Faith and hope,

    I read your post. I gave some serious thought about what you said to me.

    1. You are entitled to your beliefs and opinions but I am also entitled to mine.

    2. Witnessing to me is not your strong point.

    3. The name ‘Fr. Tim Moyle’ doesn’t help your cause.

    4. You have “Faith and hope but..no Love in that closed heart of yours.

    5. I have no problem wishing you Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

    Lina

    3. You have a narrow mind.

  19. Lina says:

    Re: Post 18

    That second number 3. You have a narrow mind. That should not be there. I want to make it clear that is a typo error.
    Sorry,
    Lina

  20. Tim says:

    19 posts on Fr. Cloutier, but how many of them even mention Fr. Cloutier? Does this not say the site has become more about those posting than about the subject matter?
    And- who are the most frequent posters? Tim

  21. Lina says:

    You are correct Tim.

    I derailed it.

    My apologies.

    Good night!

    Lina

  22. Valley Girl says:

    Post # 6

    Father Tim Moyle,

    Thank you for reminding me that the church is far more than it’s priests. It’s something that I had forgotten and part of the reason that I’m struggling. Your post has helped me.

  23. Michel B. says:

    Estimates that 9 % of clergy are directly involved in child abuse and you must add to this those people who detract from the pursuit of these criminals.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/sep/11/pope-vatican-abuse-geoffrey-robertson

    This makes for more than just a few. Looks like a duck, walks like a duck…

  24. Tim says:

    You are using Geoffrey Robertson, friend of Richard Dawkins as your authority by quoting him. AIM higher! Tim

  25. Lina says:

    Re: Post #22—-I did read Post #6 & a friend responded to (my) struggles & confusion.

    “It may not be so much “confusion” as it is a period of growth and transition. Our whole way of thinking is mostly developed in childhood, so breaking certain patterns in adulthood can require more time and deliberate effort. Because of things we’ve been taught as children (such as religious indoctrination) we tend to think in certain ways that we are not even aware of. Some aspects of childhood teaching and indoctrination may remain a part of our psyches and subconscious throughout our lives, even though our core beliefs may have changed.

    We must learn to separate what we’ve been taught from what we instinctively feel and believe within ourselves with deep introspection. Gradually, we can learn to trust ourselves rather than blindly accept what we are taught. With progress, life actually becomes MORE meaningful when we free ourselves from the bondage of other people’s rigid concepts of existence (religion) and allow ourselves to expand our thinking beyond those concepts that were all laid out for us, inhibiting our ability to actually think, learn, and progress.

    Those are my thoughts, which may or may not apply to what you’re going through. I think the fact that you are unsure of some things is actually a very positive and healthy sign. It shows that you are willing to question and examine things on a deeper level, and your heart and mind are open to different ways of thinking.

    Many of us may never fully escape the deeply implanted thought processes that are a result of indoctrination, but we can be more ourselves instead of drones of what someone else wanted us to be.”

    Lina

  26. Larry Green says:

    In regard to my comment from post # 5. Not to sure what happened but I didn’t realize the fact that my comment was submitted as incomplete. It should read as follows: How can I not loose my faith in the whole institution of the priesthood in light of this terrible situation of clergy sexual abuse paired with the rampant and insidious propagation of discrimination, racism and prejudice.
    Fr. Tim , ‘faith’ in the sense that I refer here is a naturally developed trust and sense of confidence. Human beings need to have faith in other human beings everyday in order to function. I need to have faith in the people who built my truck – otherwise I would be to afraid to drive it. In other words I am not responsible for the development of my own faith – others are responsible for it‘s development as well as for it‘s destruction. –
    I have intimated above that I have lost faith in the priesthood in general and to suggest that one can have faith in the catholic church while at the same time none in its priests is like saying just because you don’t trust Toyota motors , you must realize that a Toyota is much more than it’s motors.
    Faith in God is another matter. I don’t know where your faith in God comes from – you can place it or misplace it- but whatever faith I have in God I receive from God – a supernatural gift – not my doing at all and it couldn’t be ‘misplaced’ even if for some reason I wanted to.
    With or without the church , I am fortunate and blessed to have a very profound and beautifull relationship with God.

  27. Michael says:

    Post #26
    Larry,
    Your comparison to the church to a vehile is rediculous. We are talking here about human beings and human errors. Fr.Tim’s statemets certainlly tru. Church consists of lay persons, Deacons, nuns, priests and bishops and pope. It is the all faithful not a particular group or individual. The catholic church teaches too the same way.
    There is no point in making a general statement, based on few individual cases.
    How do you and others will feel if I make a statment that there were hundreds of children in Cayuga at the time Grecco was the priest there and none of them he abused except one or two. So whose falult it is??. Is it the parents of the abused? Or the individual themselves? Why other kids were not abused ?? Is it because they were good children better than the abused??Why did they not report to the parents or to the police at that time, or ten years later when they were adults? You also ask questions the same way,. So I too can make my own conclusions like you do. But that is not right.
    Catholic church is comprised of people of different races, ethnic backgrounds, people from different families. So always there will be some who are not good. We canot make a general conclusion that all the priests are bad, it is like some one saying all Musilims are terrorists or all Americans and canadians are stupid people!
    Faith is someting that gives a person hope and strength in one’s daily struggles. Some may not find hope in Catholic church. There are other churches they are free to go to or other religions around the world. They are free to be an atheist.Father Tim’s statement is the best answer for all you who attack the holy catholic church.

  28. Michel B. says:

    Blame the victims Michael, just a few…. check the side board on this site as it grows with numerous reported abusers… many are still hidden due to peoples fear of disclosure and how that will impact their families and friends within their catholic circles. Please check this site http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AbuseTracker/ and note the archives since 2003. more than a few and more every day. It’s like shining the light on cockroaches. The abuse of children is institutional with a lot of organizations. You minimize the truth and you blame parents and children for having or being bad children… please my 30 years in human services tell me different that abusers minimize and do such things as you indicate, children do not lie to get in trouble, adults don’t lie to be put into a shameful process. Abusers are criminals who hurt children, the church and their families….it’s not the children who have done this to the sanctimonious catholic church it’s the abusers. If the church expended more effort and resources at being honest and truthfull rather than deceitful, guarded and self protective it’s members might become honoured by these actions. Hinder not the children..the mess your in is of your own making not because the many are intolerant of crime against themselves and their loved ones and report it. Christ would be ashamed i suspect and might be angry as when he entered the temple full of money changers…similar circumstances except worst children are hindered at the fear of loosing wealth.

  29. Lina says:

    Re: Post #6

    1. Fr. T. M. said: “By recognizing that the Church is FAR MORE than its priests! If your faith is in us… you have put it in the wrong place! Your faith should rest on God and upon the salvation won for us by Christ…”

    Lina writes: I agree, that faith in God comes first. What’s not to love about Jesus! He treated people with dignity & fairness especially when it came to women, children, the sick & the poor.

    2. Fr. T. M. said: “..as well as upon His abiding Spirit which guides the Church on earth to keep it free from ultimate error.”

    Lina writes: I get bad vibes on that one “free from ultimate error.” Especially after saying: “By recognizing that the Church is FAR MORE than its priests! If your faith is in us… you have put it in the wrong place…”

    The Church is made up of imperfect people & sinners & that includes priests & myself too. To expect people not questioned the Church, their leaders? To expect folks to just follow the Church blindly, (the powerful structure, the Vatican)…these men have this inner driven power for man-made rules. To follow the Catho0lic Church without a single thought is irresponsible & very dangerous.

    I’m still well aware of that dark shadow of global criminal abuse cover-ups & not to forget the current scandal about the Vatican Bank woes/corruption that are still in full swing.

    3. Fr. T.M. said: “You have known good priests and bad priests in your life. How can you let the malfeasance of a few steal from you the grace and goodness of the many whom have served faithfully?”

    Lina writes: What does a few really mean? To me it means to downplay the amount of the criminal abuses cases around the world. The amount of clergy abuse victims is not really a sizable amount to even keep track of, after all it’s just ‘a few’? If you live on some kind of ‘fantasy island’ that might make it true & believable saying ‘a few’.

    Websites like http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AbuseTracker/ and S.N.A.P. http://www.snapnetwork.org/ and may clergy abuse victims have their own sites to help educate folks & help other abuse victims like this website: http://cityofangels8.blogspot.com/

    These sites & others similar might help you see a clearer picture of theses crimes done against children & vulnerable youth. Nevertheless, if you want desperately keep that image & stay in the good graces with the Roman Catholic Church you will give them/the Vatican that benefit of doubt of yours.

    For many Catholic followers: {{{BANG}}} The self-perceived “holy ones” believe their gavels are God-gavels. They used this God-gavel against the victims to protect the image & monies of the Church. Many do not let the VICTIMS forget it. That is wrong & so despicable!

    My opinion…many priests in public are true & faithful to their vocation but in private they do evil & criminal acts. Some get caught & brought to justice. Sadly, many other priests get away with their evil criminal acts. Many of these bad priests have many supporters that are so willing to help them get away with their crimes even if many of these supporters (the enablers) do not like it.

    Nevertheless, I am grateful to the priests that came into my life & did & still do set good examples what a good priest should be.

    My faith is in God.

    Lina

  30. Larry Green says:

    Michel B. your analogy ” it’s like shinning the light on cockroaches” is a brilliant one.

  31. arlene says:

    Re:post 24….Tim…what’s wrong with Richard Dawkins?

  32. Tim says:

    Check him out by doing a Google search. I do not have enough time left in my life to describe it. Tim

  33. arlene says:

    Did that google search……looks like he is a well educated and scholarly individual.I believe individuals should be applauded for their pursuit of education and their passion to support scientific education and critical thinking.

  34. michael says:

    Arlene,
    I agree to your opinion and views. But this is not a web site to make such comments. Many who write here claim that they are Mrs and mr. know all! Claim also that they worked in human resourses or other departments. But their writings make me wonder how did they get those jobs. Many of them are depressed men or women, prehaps lonley, nothing else to do and are not happy persons in life.So they get in to gossipping.Many I look at the writings of many who writes continously, have no basic education or knowledge about anything but claims that they are smart individuals.The are fools. But they may think then why I write or get in to this site? It is because want to tell them that they are fools wasting time and I am a devils advocate and I enjoy my free time by defending the tru and only church which christ instituted. Any one who speaks against the catholic church as a whole are evil people, they have no place in heaven.

  35. Tim says:

    Arlene, if you think one of the World’d leading proponents of the Evolution Theory , with his hate of the Catholic Church, and stated objection to Christianity and Creation, belongs in your pursuit of Truth, then I think you have been tricked very badly.
    If you are not a Christian, then why would you be worried about our beliefs? If you are a Christian, how can you possibly believe in junk merchants like Dawkins? Tim

  36. arlene says:

    Tim…..John Paul as well as Benedict stated that evolution is a valid theory and that science and religion can
    co-exist. See the follwoing weblink: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19956961/ns/world_news-europe/
    Dawkins may be a proclaimed atheist and a hater of the catholic church,however to completely dismiss him and call him a junk merchant is unjust and unfair.

  37. Tim says:

    Theory is not fact until proven! Hitler was proven to exist, but I would not follow him. Dawkins also exists, but, follow him at your own peril. Tim

  38. arlene says:

    Tim…..please go back to school and take a course about science and what the word “theory” means as well as the word “proven”. Gravity is “just a theory”,and for Pete’s sake, the fact that you are made up of cells is “just a theory”……ever heard of the cell theory? You should personally speak to John Paul in prayer and Benedict to advise THEM of their erroneous thoughts and the peril that they are putting themselves in.

  39. Larry Green says:

    An extremely articulate and coherent message there Michael.
    (#34)

  40. Lina says:

    Re: Post # 34

    Michael said:….”I am a devils advocate and I enjoy my free time by defending the tru and only church which christ instituted. Any one who speaks against the catholic church as a whole are evil people, they have no place in heaven.”

    Michael believes there is no place in heaven for those (many unknown people) that would include me WHEN we question or speak against the Roman Catholic Church that Christ instituted.

    That is so dangerous on many levels, especially dangerous for clergy abuse victims because they will feel & think people like Mike & others that share the same mindset represent & speak for all the followers of the Catholic Church. Not True!

    For those Catholics who do not speak up for victims, your silence helps people like Michael to keep projecting this attitude: “Any one who speaks against the catholic church as a whole are evil people, they have no place in heaven.”

    Folks…this is the true horror of how religious indoctrination holds minds like this poster in #34 in bondage. I hear it is good thing to be loyal but this is ridiculous.

    Victims would be wise to take your complaint(s) to the POLICE, not to your local church or to your local Diocese.

    I even over looked that Michael didn’t put a capital C to Christ’s name or to the words Catholic Church. That is minor compared what he said what happens when we speak against the Catholic Church in that last sentence of his.

    Lina

  41. Tim says:

    Arlene, my dictionary says a theory is a supposition explaning something,a doctrine or scheme of things resting merely on speculation, a hypothesis. Perhaps you have a better one than the New Webster Encyclopdic Dictionary of the English Language, 1980 Edition. Tim

  42. Michel B. says:

    I know I have a little splinter in my eye but man I am seeing a lot of people with beams in theirs..

  43. arlene says:

    Re:post #41-Tim- Yes, I do have a better dictionary(Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary,2nd Edition-2006)which has as its first defintion for theory “a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena eg.Einstein’s Theory of Relativity”. In addition, I also have the Oxford Dictionary of Current English(2nd edition, 1996) which has as its first defintion that a theory is
    ” supposition or system of ideas explaining something esp. one based on general principles independent of the particular things to be explained (atomic theory and theory of evolution).” As you are probably well aware there are several defintions of any word in the dictionary, and it is individuals like you who distort a particular use of a word for your own benefit and to mislead the rest of the sheep.Also, you did not mention anything about trying to set John Paul and Benedict straight.

  44. Tim says:

    If you are referring to POPE John Paul 11, AND POPE Benedict 16, I do not comment on the Popes of my Church. and I acknowledge them as my leader, and as POPES !
    How easily you pick and choose which definition fits your particular point of view. And it is said EVEN Satan can quote from the Bible. Tim

  45. arlene says:

    Tim, Please be honest. You can’t possibly believe what you write. I didn’t “choose” the definition. It’s the definition of the word that matches its use in the sciences, as the theories being discussed here are scientific theories. Assuming you really are a priest, surely you have graduated from a university at some point in the past. There is nothing new or exciting, or intellectually challenging beyond perhaps grade 10 English classes, about the proper use of a dictionary,the many connotations and denotations of words, and how to choose proper definitions for the uses of words.
    By the way, Catholic schools in Ontario teach the scientific theory of evolution in their grade 11 biology classes. Teachers would rightfully be sanctioned by their association if they did not know the difference between common uses of the word “theory” and how the various sciences use the word but instead tried to confuse their students the way you and your sort of apologist do. None of these science teachers are going to be in trouble either with their church or with their God for using their brain and teaching science theories. You and the intellectual dishonesty you are promoting are the one in peril here.
    In addition, if the Popes are your leaders then I guess you agree with them that science and religion can co-exist.Glad this debate has ended.

  46. Tim says:

    Arlene, as Delphonse wrote—-The whit of one on wit, when only dimly lit, is but half a light.Tim Bye-bye

  47. arlene says:

    Not Bye-Bye Tim….maybe see you later when we meet together in Heaven.

  48. Larry Green says:

    Michel B. : Just to clarify. My comment to Michael was a bit facetious.
    My comment on yours was serious and complimentary.

  49. Michel B. says:

    Thank you Larry. The truth will set you free, but it also should make you responsible and thereafter accountable afterwich should come singleness of purpose. Admit it, own it, identify it and then change it. this is the only way the Church will save itself from itself. Criminals and their supporters should not be teaching the word.

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