O.K. I am going to address the conflict between Larry Green and Tim posted under “The review” here. That will keep the Review open for comments re John MacDonald’s dealings with the RCMP.
Tim, many people who post comments on this site have been dealt with in an outrageous fashion by clergy and officials in the Church. To this day “the Church” refuses to purge the priesthood of all known molesters and, indeed, the recycling continues to this day. Please bear that in mind when someone vents. Neither you nor I know the background of those who blow off steam, or point fingers. We do not know why someone is angry with the Church and her officials. In many instances, unfortunately, people have been hurt, or deceived or betrayed and have good reason to be angry.
Larry Green, you made comments which triggered Tim’s response. You made comments with which I don’t necessarily agree. I personally was not offended. Saddened yes, but, offended, no. Not at all. I can see that you are deeply concerned about the sex absue scandal in the Church. I wish that more were as concerned and anxious as you to bring it to an end.
Tim, when I read your comments to Larry Green I was reminded that many Roman Catholics do not understand the devastating impact which clerical sexual abuse has had on Roman Catholics, and the anger and/or pain which the abysmal response and cover-up by Church officials has triggered.
I forget at times that I have been talking to victims and their families, researching and sitting in courtrooms for years. In those years I have heard a lot of disparaging comments made about “the Church,” and about bishops, and about the Pope. The comments invariably came from those who had, in some fashion, been seriously hurt by the sex abuse scandal directly or indirectly. So, I have learned and am well aware that that there is anger out there. It doesn’t upset me. I get angry myself. I have been annoyed on many occasions by the actions or non-actions of Church officials. Ditto those of the Holy Father. That in no way negates the love I have for my Church.
I think that all Catholics must bear in mind that in this day and age there are many who strike out at the Church because of the clerical sexual abuse crisis and cover-up. Most victims who have been abused by priests view all priests in a negative light. They see priests through the eyes of the child who was molested by the man of God, the priest who, in the eyes of that same child, is closer to God than any human being on earth, i.e., during the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, the priest says the words of consecration and Christ becomes present on the altar, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, and, in confession the priest says the words of absolution and sins are forgiven.
How then is a young boy who was molested by a priest to understand the priesthood and his faith? What does it do to the child’s faith to see his molester in the sanctuary uttering the words of consecration? How is a victim to respond when he/she learns that Church officilas view his/her sexual abuse as so inconsquential that they are willing to place children at risk of suffering the same fate?
The harm inflcited upon the victim is compounded in those all too frequent instances wherein Church authorities deny that such abuse has transpired and overtly or covertly categorize the victim as a liar. It is further compounded in those instances wherein victims later learn that Church officials lied to them.
Family and friends of victims are affected by the abuse in similar fashion.
Parishioners are affected when they discover that the priest in the sanctuary is a known child molester. In those instances it is difficult for many to acknowledge that they were wilfully deceived by their bishop and that children were wilfully placed at risk.
I believe therefore that it is incumbent on Catholics in this day and age to bear in mind that many Catholics who no longer practise their faith have essentially been driven about by the sex abuse scandal. I have no idea where Larry Green fits into the equation, but I do believe that belittling his faith serves no good end.
In light of all that, and in light media reports of bishops advocating for married priests and others advocating women’s ordination and a reversal of the Church’s stance on homosexuality, I think it is time for me clarify where I stand on a few issues – not to open them up to debate, but just so those who don’t know me will know where I stand.
In point format and a little at random:
- I am a convert to Catholicism.
- I am not a proponent of homosexual activity or same-sex marriage. I was not a proponent of either before I became Catholic.
- I do not support the ordination of women. My experience and research tell me that those women who lobby for women’s ordination are intent on creating a new church which bears no resemblance to the Roman Catholic Church in structure, moral teachings or liturgy.
- As I said, I am a convert. As a child I was raised non-Catholic amidst anti-Catholic rhetoric. I realized in later years that the rhetoric was on the whole not based on knowledge of the Church and her teachings. To the contrary. The long and short there is that I have been on both the hurling and receiving end of anti-Catholicism. Having been on the other side I understand that many people are anti-Catholic through ignorance.
- I did not become Catholic until I believed in and embraced the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church. I believed it would have been hypocritical of me to do otherwise. When I was ready to convert, I did not for a moment think that I should stay in a non-Catholic church with the intent of making it conform to my belief in how God wants me to live my life on this earth with the object of spending eternity with Him in the next.
- Church teaching on homosexuality and women’s ordination will not change. I do not understand why those who stridently advocate for both remain in the Church. There are many Christian churches which have female priests/ministers and as many which advocate for homosexuality and same sex marriage.
- Most Catholics who advocate homosexuality, same-sex marriage and women’s ordination also advocate the abolition of priestly celibacy.
- Men who enter the seminary know that they will not be allowed to marry if they pursue the priesthood as a vocation. They are ordained knowing that can not marry. They are also, for that matter, ordained knowing that they are expected to live a chaste life.
- For a priest to cry the blues that he can not marry is akin to a married man bewailing the fact that he has a yen for the attractive secretary but is bound by his marriage vows.
- It might surprise many to know that the very bishops who have tolerated clerical molesters and/or recycled them over the past fifty years are those who simultaneously (1) overtly or covertly allowed the homosexual agenda to infiltrate the Catholic Church and (2) overtly or covertly champion women’s ordination and (3) overtly or covertly advocate the abolition of priestly celibacy.
- I can speak to the situation in Canada where I know that the large majority of our bishops twiddled their collective thumbs while “sexual orientation” legislation was being pushed through parliament. Many if not all remained silent while priest professors advocating the homosexual agenda taught future priests at various Canadian seminaries. Many if not all endorsed sex ed programs and AIDS ed programs which blatantly undermine the moral teachings of the Church regarding homosexuality.
- I have friends who are homosexual. They know where I stand. I love them dearly, but I do not and can not condone their lifestyle.
- I fail to see how endorsing homosexuality will eradicate clerical sexual abusers. A homosexual priest is as capable as a heterosexual priest of molesting a child.
- I think it is most unfortunate that those who advocate homosexual activity, same-sex marriage, women’s ordination and the abolition of priestly celibacy use the clerical sexual abuse scandal to try to advance their cause. I see that as the politicization of clerical sexual abuse.
- I fail to see how the ordination of women will eradicate clerical sexual molesters. Nuns are female – their presence in the past failed to prevent priests bent on molesting from molesting. And, lest we forget, there are female molesters. Indeed, there are horrendous stories of nuns who molested children.
- I fail to see how the eradication of priestly celibacy will eradicate clerical sexual abuse. There are countless cases of married men who molest. There are also countless cases of men who are not Roman Catholic priests and therefore not bound by celibacy who molest.
- It is small wonder that there is mass confusion on these matters. Our shepherds have failed to lead and, with very rare exception, have failed to reprimand those who publicly dissent from Church teaching. I remind all yet again that these are the same shepherds who failed to hold predatory priests accountable for their sins and crimes and boldly recycled them from parish to parish and/or diocese to diocese. They are the same shepherds who turned a blind eye to the plight of the victim and wilfully placed children at risk.
I could go on, but, I think enough said. I don’t want to open the floor to discussion on these issues – to do so would, I fear, divert from the issue of clerical sexual abuse. I believe that it is a red herring to infer that women’s ordination, abolition of priestly celibacy and condoning of homosexuality will in any way shape or form stop priests from molesting, and/or stop the cover-ups, and/or stop recycling of molesters, and/or lead to the laicization of known molesters.
Enough for now,
Sylvia
I am always perplexed as to how advocating for truth about pedophile priest sex crimes is an attack on religion or even the Catholic Church, as one of the victims who has covered this crime spree at City of Angels Blog for four years.
If you think your church is under attack, you’re saying your religion has something to do with pedophilia.
Most of us are shocked that this much criminal activity against children was allowed to happen, and the real perpetrators, the bishops who kept these men in the priesthood, are still in office, in positions of esteem. What does that have to do with religion?
There are 10,969 pedophile priests identified so far by Bishop Accountability, 20-200 times more than in other professions. I know from experience the bishops are doing all they can to keep the truth about the extent of these crimes from getting into mainstream media.
It’s felony sex crimes against children, not religion, that we seek to undo
HELLO KAY. HOPE THIS FINDS YOU AND YOURS WELL AND SAFE. THANKS FOR YOUR IMPUT, MIND BLOWING FIGURES, LETS HOPE IT GETS THE ATTENTION OF AT LEAST A FEW OF THE SHEEPLE, IT S A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. PEACE. CLANCY CHISHOLM
I am a catholic ( confirmed about 50 years ago). I can tell you that it isn’t something new at all for me to hear people express fear of being attacked by those with an “anti catholic agenda”
It is in fact one prejudice of many that have been formed in me by the comunity of the church since the very early years of my life. It is without a doubt becoming a message increasingly propounded by church authorities including the pope.( He warns that we need to beware of those with anti-catholic agenda.) It seperates “we” from the ” unknown they” so that “we” can brace ourselves for further attacks when more molestation and cover up is revealed. It also helps to protect the ideology by ensuring “the sheep remain sheep” ie. do not question ” the MORAL TEACHINGS of the church” I have been called a “catholic with an anti catholic agenda, “a weak catholic ” , ” a stray from the flock.) I am a human being who is in pursuit of the truth and of justice. Neither of which can ever be achieved by clinging to moral certitudes that seek to classify and characterize people. Every human being has the right to be judged on individual merrit and to be treated with equal respect and dignity.
You are right , I am angry with the church and I am venting but you shouldn’t be saddened by that because it is a neccessary stage in the development of something good.
I am for fundamental reasons a catholic and human being who very passionatley chooses to stand with those who are oppressed , disciminated against, the marginal and those like Kay who have been so deeply wounded by the those we have most trusted.
Kay, I have been to your site on a number of occasions – keep up the good work.
Larry Green, never ever cease your pursuit of truth and justice.
Only sometime after I die Sylvia.
Thanks. Me too will write about thish ’til I die, in fact, City of Angels Blog is going on the road, to travel and write about survivors around the country. Working title for this project is “Murmur She Wrote,” as I’m an old lady like Agnes M on the TV show, but my subjects don’t like to speak loudly about their crimes.
So it will be Murmur She Wrote…
Work in progress
Thanks and tell your friends.
Best wishes Kay…”going on the road, to travel and write about survivors around the country…” is great thinking. I believe this will help to empower and perhaps just as important, “connect” many voices who for one reason or another were afraid or unable to “speak out”.
I see the “connection” of voices around the country, continent, world….as a very important and necessary step….without the courtrooms….the courts can come later.
At the risk of being booed off the Planet, I wish to make the following observation.
In keeping with the teaching of Our Lord the Church, and all
professionals who work in the field of recovery, our aim needs to be to find our way to FORGIVENESS. We can not continue to say The Lord’s Prayer in honesty if we are not willing to forgive!Vengeance is MINE saith The Lord ! Tim
Fair enough Tim, but would Jesus have us hide the truth about a convicted molester priest’s past from parishoners, or assign him to work with children again, or tell parishoners to shut up it’s none of your business when they inquired about a priest’s guilt, etc.? What does forgiveness entail for you Tim? Don’t forget that it was also Jesus who cautioned him who would lead little ones astray that it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck.
Hello Kay, I didn,t know you before now so I can’t say I’ve visited your site numerous times, only once. I can say though that it is very clear to see that you have been and continue to be a wonderful source of inspiration to so many people.I sincerely feel it an honor to speak to you. Thank You for being a light in the world.
Re: Post #9
Catholics in particular, it has been my experience, play fast and loose with quoting Scripture. A kind of Cafeteria cruising, selecting the passage and then trying to use it to justify a position.God said Judge not so Ye not be judged. That includes judging someone to be good. HE also said You shall not kill. He did not same except when you wish to justify it.
I do not like ANY molester, but, I have never once heard this kind of vitriol hurled at not Clergy. Do we hate Clergy more than we hate lay people? Tim
Hello Tim, Your last statement in post #11 implies that we hate both groups.
Did you want to do that?
Post #11 should have read : hurled at most Clergy. I try very hard to hate NO Clergy ! Imay hate their actions, but, like murderers, I am to pray for them. Tim
I meant your last question (not statement).
And I meant lay people who molest. Tim
Oh.
It depends on who we were molested by.
Not a personal disclosure. Just a universal we.
Tim et al: I sure am glad this website isn’t a Bible study reserved for Roman Catholic’s or is it?. Wouldn’t it just be “lovely” if the “world” lived life as the Bible reads….and/or the way Tim or similar thinking “people” interpret scripture. Then perhaps, we would not need police, governments, justice systems, judges, jails, rehabilitation, etc., etc. But, reality is different, isn’t it.
I am all for forgiveness, but in its proper order.
a)admission of guilt individually, not as a blanket coverage-so to speak, as the Pope likes to do, b)individual and systemic accountability and responsibility for the transgressions, c)fair and equitable “treatment” compensation to victims, payable by the “guilty-individuals and/or systems”, d)consequences to the individual “guilty”, such as prison terms-stoning-beheading or otherwise, whatever the applicable punishment/consequence related to the crime, as prescribed by the norms/laws outlined in the governing jurisdiction, e)forgiveness.
Post #19 is full of the vitriol which places emphasis in money that will wipe away Evil, and punishment for others. Look in the mirror and see if you have escaped punishment for what you have done. Tim
Is this the same Tim who started posting comments about two months ago. Boy, quite an evolution. Really taking things to a new level lately, aren’t you Tim. I guess we can all offer an opinion right? So, Re: Post #20 and Tim: In reply to your suggestion to me, I suggest to you; take a look in the mirror and see the, self righteous, controlling, judgemental, prejudicial, labelling type personality, who knowingly or otherwise, perpetuates (in part) hatred, misery, continuing abuse and injustice, to name a few. I see this as the consequences of fear, ignorance and the evidence of “blindly” living and working in a very “Closed System”.
I will weigh in on this…
My thoughts….
Sadly, until Church authorities treat clerical sexual abuse as the horror that it is and clerical molesters as the blight to the priesthood and threat to children that they are, people – both Catholic and non-Catholic – are going to see the Church in a negative light. Those clergy within the Church who continue to tolerate known predators within their ranks do the Church no favour. Those bishops who continue to recycle molesters do the Church no favour. Those laymen who welcome a recycled clerical molester into their church while leaving other parishioners in the dark about his sins and crimes do the Church no favour.
I have often said that the Church has been hijacked by sexual predators. They have been in control for some time. They are not about to surrender. There is a battle being waged to get them out. There is a battle being waged to keep them in.
The Church right now looks no more holy to those on the outside who do not know the Catholic faith, and to those on the inside who, for a variety of reasons, do not practise it, than Christ looked like the Son of God as He hung on the Cross.
Many people have been hurt by clergy. Many people have been betrayed by clergy. Many people have been deceived by clergy. Many people have been lied to by clergy.
There is anger. Justifiable anger.
Tim, I love my Church. I have little time however for those within the Church who have allowed clerical sexual predators to run rampant. I can not defend the indefensible. I doubt that you would want to either, but, that’s the way it comes across.
The accusation that victims seek financial compensation to punish their molester is a shot below the belt. Truth be told it is Church officials who have all too often initiated talk of financial compensation. Furthermore, many countries have a statute of limitations – the closest a victim can come to justice in those countries is a lawsuit. The same holds for victims everywhere who come forward only to discover that their molester is dead.
Finally, on the issue of financial compensation, a lawsuit is the only way to hold bishops accountable for allowing a molester to run rampant in a diocese. I would prefer to see these men charged, but, since that just doesn’t happen, I will support the lawsuit.
There are countless cases of victims who approached Church officials seeking only an apology and thereby affirmation of the abuse they endured at the hands of a priest. Rarely did they get an apology, at least not at that early stage of their attempts to deal with their abuse. They did, however, get offers of financial compensation, this with later claims that the money was to pay for counselling and is not to be misconstrued in any way, shape or form as affirmation of the sex abuse allegations.
What are people to think? What are people to think when this is what they see, hear and/or experience? What are people to think when they know that this has been going on for years and continues to this day?
What are people to think of a Church whose officials refuse to laicize ALL clerical sexual predators?
What are people to think of a Church whose officials continue to recycle known predators and thereby continue to deceive the faithful and wilfully put children at risk?
Yes, there is anger. Justifiable anger. Rather than denigrate those who are justifiably angry we should work together to purge the Church of those clergy who have brought us to this sorry day. Denigrate those shepherds who have hijacked the Church – it is their sins of omission and commission which have brought us to this. Don’t for goodness sake denigrate the sheep.
Sylvia’s post (#22)
What an inspiring and awesome post!
I find it sickening to see Msg Borne walk the streets with his collar on and a smug defiant look about him. I know ther’s the innocent till proven guilty crap but even if this trial ends in a not guilty verdict , I know he IS.It makes me angry to even think he may beat these charges because he can afford good lawyers.
The fact is though, if he is convicted on these later charges the original complainants that were denied access to justice through the court will have the opportunity to take him on in a civil law-suit.
Awhile back, I was at a funeral luncheon. The lady I sat beside told me she spoke with Monsignor Borne. They didn’t talk about his problems. She said it was a very awkward situation.
If Msgr. Borne crosses my path I will tell him what I think in a nice way mind you. As of now, I do not know what I would say but I will say something. It is way better to say something than nothing. I would need to live with the consequences of course.
I will not hurt him, like kicking him the groin. That would not be nice or christian of me, anyway I would probably see more jail time than he would ever see!
Why can a couple of priests get together and go to Msgr. Borne and pray for all involved, and reassure him that they will stand by him and continue to be with their brother priest. Support him to face the truth about himself so the victims can get closer and justice. Furthermore support him even after he admits all his wrong doing.
In other words…DO the right thing for the love of God!
I just do not understand all the lies and denials.
How can this priest sleep at night?…knowing his victims are hurting and need him to tell the truth?
I seriously do not think God listens to this Monsignor’s prayers. God would want him to tell the truth and do his penitence like any other good Catholic.
Why can Msgr. Borne just do the right thing and tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in God’s name?
So sad!
The sorry truth about at the very least about some of these molesters is that the psycology of their twisted lives makes the truth almost inaccesable to themselves. Many such as Borne are in denial that they have done anything wrong so much so that they have no difficulty projecting their own guilt upon the victim.They conduct their lives as though they are the courageous victim and the victim is their oppressor . This whole psycological perversion of morral accountability does a great deal turn black and white to grey not only for the molester but for everyone involved including the victim.It is evil cunningness of the lowest order.
Weeks after the story broke out about Msgr. Robert Borne his Mother returned to church at the 5 o’clock Saturday evening Mass.
After Mass I went to tell her I was happy to see her out & about. I was worried about how this Mother was handling the situation about her son’s recent arrest.
I was surprise at the info she gave me. First, she did not want to be hugged because she did not want to start to cry. Then she said she never miss Mass because her son said Mass at her home. She also admitted that her son is innocent. He said he didn’t do it and she believes her son did not do what they said he did.
Then she continued the conversation with our parish priest that there will be justice.
Lies are being said about her son. If justice is not here on earth then on the other side they(the accusers)will be dealt with there.
This elderly mother of Monsignor Borne is 85yrs old. She has health issues like asthma.
Her son has convinced his own mother he did no wrong. Borne should prepare his Mom but like Larry said many like Borne are in denial.
I feel badly for this elderly lady and her two other adult children.
I also feel deeply hurt for the victims’ family, that want to see justice for their loved ones.
I pray that Monsignor Borne does not get away with all he did. I should say alleged but I can’t because I believe the victims not Monsignor Borne.
Lord help us all!